Comments on: Myths About Simple Church http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/ Random discussions about various topics, with an emphasis on simple church and other out-of-the-box thoughts. Sun, 21 Aug 2011 06:17:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jada's Gigi http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-434 Jada's Gigi Wed, 24 May 2006 15:52:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-434 Got in on this discussion through Gordon and i'm so glad I stopped by. You have naile don the head some very repetitive questions that come up over and over in reference to this kind of alternative church. Personally and in my on experience...meeting in the organic ways you are describing is far more biblical and "safe" than meeting in an institutional setting any day. The believers I know who live this way are active participants in their own Christianity and usually acquire incredible depth and maturity as believers over time which i rarely ever saw in traditional churches. Thank you for sharing so articulately. Got in on this discussion through Gordon and i’m so glad I stopped by. You have naile don the head some very repetitive questions that come up over and over in reference to this kind of alternative church. Personally and in my on experience…meeting in the organic ways you are describing is far more biblical and “safe” than meeting in an institutional setting any day. The believers I know who live this way are active participants in their own Christianity and usually acquire incredible depth and maturity as believers over time which i rarely ever saw in traditional churches. Thank you for sharing so articulately.

]]> By: Gordon Cloud http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-433 Gordon Cloud Tue, 23 May 2006 21:48:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-433 "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." I forget who said that, but it seems apropos here. There have indeed been extreme cases where the "senior pastor" became so firmly entrenched or absolutely controlling that it caused great damage to the church and its members. I would suggest that in this instances, you are looking at something that more closely resembles a cult than a church. You make a good point about accountability. I believe that within a church, believers are to be accountable to one another in matters of faith and practice. As far as doctrine vs. heresy, our church has a statement of faith that was discussed and adopted by the members. We are all held to that doctrinal statement. If I, or anyone else preaches or teaches something contrary, we can be called into account. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

I forget who said that, but it seems apropos here.

There have indeed been extreme cases where the “senior pastor” became so firmly entrenched or absolutely controlling that it caused great damage to the church and its members. I would suggest that in this instances, you are looking at something that more closely resembles a cult than a church.

You make a good point about accountability. I believe that within a church, believers are to be accountable to one another in matters of faith and practice.

As far as doctrine vs. heresy, our church has a statement of faith that was discussed and adopted by the members. We are all held to that doctrinal statement. If I, or anyone else preaches or teaches something contrary, we can be called into account.

]]> By: Ray http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-432 Ray Tue, 23 May 2006 17:43:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-432 <B>I</B> am uncomfortable with the role of 'head' pastor! :-) In our structure, I am one of the elder/pastors in the church, and could not fathom being <B>THE MAN</B>. While I am the 'senior' pastor <I>(a title conferred on me by others)</I>, I make no unilateral decisions. While I am not quite a simple church guy like Steve and ded, I understand the concern regarding the head pastor. I came out of a situation where the head pastor was answerable to no one, and went off the deep end, hurting countless people in the process... I was the Associate Pastor in that situation, but under the terms of that particular denomination, I was powerless to step in and try to stop the madness... So, when we formed our church, I made sure that I was never put in a position of solely having the 'keys' to the place... Some of the people in the church were actually uncomfortable initially with a plurality of leaders <I>(they have never experienced that)</I>, but over time they have seen how silly I can be and have thanked me for the structure we have... I am uncomfortable with the role of ‘head’ pastor! :-)

In our structure, I am one of the elder/pastors in the church, and could not fathom being THE MAN. While I am the ‘senior’ pastor (a title conferred on me by others), I make no unilateral decisions.

While I am not quite a simple church guy like Steve and ded, I understand the concern regarding the head pastor. I came out of a situation where the head pastor was answerable to no one, and went off the deep end, hurting countless people in the process… I was the Associate Pastor in that situation, but under the terms of that particular denomination, I was powerless to step in and try to stop the madness…

So, when we formed our church, I made sure that I was never put in a position of solely having the ‘keys’ to the place… Some of the people in the church were actually uncomfortable initially with a plurality of leaders (they have never experienced that), but over time they have seen how silly I can be and have thanked me for the structure we have…

]]> By: ded http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-431 ded Tue, 23 May 2006 13:18:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-431 Just for the record: I didn't leave because I was hurt, but the process of leaving hurt. My wife and I left because after 18 years, we found ourselves in disagreement with one of the basic beliefs of our group--the role of "head" pastor. When I spoke up concerning the shift in belief away from the accepted interpretation, I went from faithful brother andelder to wayward guy who needed help, support and correction for his error. After five months of meetings, discussions, etc., my wife and I were left with three choices: We either touted the party line in order to be a fully accepted part; remain and be something that didn't fit, at odds with the status quo; or leave. We chose leaving because by this time, the realization that we could be true to scripture and not be officially organized had begun to develop in our hearts and minds. After a cooling off period, I agreed to visit area churches looking for a church home. This was placed on me by the school board that governed the Christian school, of which I had been principal for 16 years, as a requirement of continued employment. I accepted this in order to finish a three year process of accreditation for the school which would have been lost otherwise. (The accrediting agency due to visit our school the next fall, required that their visit occur without a new administrator in the principal's chair.) None of the church searching produced any results of pulling on my heart. After nearly two years of being away from organized church, we made the decision that lacking a direct call from the Lord to do otherwise, we had no reason to return. Thanks for the post, Steve. As usual, you stated yourself very clearly. Just for the record: I didn’t leave because I was hurt, but the process of leaving hurt. My wife and I left because after 18 years, we found ourselves in disagreement with one of the basic beliefs of our group–the role of “head” pastor. When I spoke up concerning the shift in belief away from the accepted interpretation, I went from faithful brother andelder to wayward guy who needed help, support and correction for his error.

After five months of meetings, discussions, etc., my wife and I were left with three choices: We either touted the party line in order to be a fully accepted part; remain and be something that didn’t fit, at odds with the status quo; or leave. We chose leaving because by this time, the realization that we could be true to scripture and not be officially organized had begun to develop in our hearts and minds.

After a cooling off period, I agreed to visit area churches looking for a church home. This was placed on me by the school board that governed the Christian school, of which I had been principal for 16 years, as a requirement of continued employment. I accepted this in order to finish a three year process of accreditation for the school which would have been lost otherwise. (The accrediting agency due to visit our school the next fall, required that their visit occur without a new administrator in the principal’s chair.) None of the church searching produced any results of pulling on my heart.

After nearly two years of being away from organized church, we made the decision that lacking a direct call from the Lord to do otherwise, we had no reason to return.

Thanks for the post, Steve. As usual, you stated yourself very clearly.

]]> By: Steve Sensenig http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-430 Steve Sensenig Tue, 23 May 2006 02:35:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-430 <B>Ray</B>, thanks for your comments. You missed out on some good discussion last week! ;) Hope you're doing well, brother, and that your eye is healing completely. I keep you in my prayers. <B>Raborn</B>, I think you've accurately identified the ultimate myth about accountability. Ultimately, it is claimed that <B>someone</B> "at the top" is accountable to God (I've actually been given that explanation when I press for details about who answers to whom), and this begs the question, then, of why the entire "kingdom of priests" is not able to be accountable to God. True (and very importantly), we are also accountable to fellow believers, and I also believe that elders tend to be respected and recognized as the body functions. But the actual "organizational chart" in the Kingdom is a lot flatter than some would like to think it is!! ;) (Speaking of which, I was actually handed a printed "org chart" at a church which showed Jesus at the top, the senior pastor right underneath him, the other pastors underneath the senior pastor, then the other ministry area leaders under their respective supervisory pastors. Very interesting...) steve :) Ray, thanks for your comments. You missed out on some good discussion last week! ;) Hope you’re doing well, brother, and that your eye is healing completely. I keep you in my prayers.

Raborn, I think you’ve accurately identified the ultimate myth about accountability. Ultimately, it is claimed that someone “at the top” is accountable to God (I’ve actually been given that explanation when I press for details about who answers to whom), and this begs the question, then, of why the entire “kingdom of priests” is not able to be accountable to God.

True (and very importantly), we are also accountable to fellow believers, and I also believe that elders tend to be respected and recognized as the body functions. But the actual “organizational chart” in the Kingdom is a lot flatter than some would like to think it is!! ;)

(Speaking of which, I was actually handed a printed “org chart” at a church which showed Jesus at the top, the senior pastor right underneath him, the other pastors underneath the senior pastor, then the other ministry area leaders under their respective supervisory pastors. Very interesting…)

steve :)

]]> By: Raborn Johnson http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-429 Raborn Johnson Tue, 23 May 2006 02:11:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-429 Steve, thanks for such a great synopsis! I totally agree with every point as being a "myth". Myth #3: "Simple churches are dangerous because they are not accountable to anyone" is really hard to even understand. The whole idea of accountability seems to me as being very misunderstood. The way the line reasoning seems to go is, "Our congregation is accountable to our pastor, who is in turn accountable to the district supervisor, who is in turn accountable to the state office, who is in turn accountable to the national headquarters, who is in turn accountable to the international headquarters, of which everyone is accountable to the president." My question is, "Who is the president/director/CEO accountable to?" It seems to me to deny the need for mutual accountability, and to become a substitute for our ultimate accountability to Jesus as Head of His Church. Accountability to me, seems to imply a level of intimacy. How can you be accountable to someone you don't even know and who doesn't know you? At this point in my life, Biblical accountability seems to be represented by "submit yourselves one to another". I am accountable to the family of believers in my life, and they are accountable to me. Do we need more than that? Steve, thanks for such a great synopsis! I totally agree with every point as being a “myth”. Myth #3: “Simple churches are dangerous because they are not accountable to anyone” is really hard to even understand. The whole idea of accountability seems to me as being very misunderstood. The way the line reasoning seems to go is, “Our congregation is accountable to our pastor, who is in turn accountable to the district supervisor, who is in turn accountable to the state office, who is in turn accountable to the national headquarters, who is in turn accountable to the international headquarters, of which everyone is accountable to the president.” My question is, “Who is the president/director/CEO accountable to?” It seems to me to deny the need for mutual accountability, and to become a substitute for our ultimate accountability to Jesus as Head of His Church. Accountability to me, seems to imply a level of intimacy. How can you be accountable to someone you don’t even know and who doesn’t know you?
At this point in my life, Biblical accountability seems to be represented by “submit yourselves one to another”. I am accountable to the family of believers in my life, and they are accountable to me. Do we need more than that?

]]> By: Ray http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/comment-page-1/#comment-428 Ray Mon, 22 May 2006 18:23:00 +0000 http://theologicalmusingsblog.com/2006/05/21/myths-about-simple-church/#comment-428 Steve -- Good stuff, you have actually dealt with my concerns over the past months, but this is a good synopsis... Being somewhat between a simple church and an institutional church, I agree with many of your statements -- especially the one dealing with heresy. Most of the heretical teaching <I>seems</I> to come from places where there is a slavish following of a specific leader, rather than a free exchange of ideas. Also, as a pastor, I know that my interaction with others in the church has helped me grow and look at different perspectives. I find that those who 'allow' no dissension tend to become rigid in their beliefs, and eventually irrelevant <I>(for example, we MUST do things the same way we have always done them)</I>... Steve — Good stuff, you have actually dealt with my concerns over the past months, but this is a good synopsis…

Being somewhat between a simple church and an institutional church, I agree with many of your statements — especially the one dealing with heresy. Most of the heretical teaching seems to come from places where there is a slavish following of a specific leader, rather than a free exchange of ideas.

Also, as a pastor, I know that my interaction with others in the church has helped me grow and look at different perspectives. I find that those who ‘allow’ no dissension tend to become rigid in their beliefs, and eventually irrelevant (for example, we MUST do things the same way we have always done them)…

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