Just Say “No”

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14, NIV)

I figured for the first post of 2007, I would try to be a bit less controversial than how we finished out 2006! ;) Actually, I have every intention of getting back to some of the great questions Gordon Cloud asked in the comment thread on the Maturity post, but something else has really pressed on my spirit today, and I want to talk about it.

There is a false dichotomy in the minds of a lot of Christians regarding the existence of sin in the life of a confessing Christian. On one hand are those who say that a Christian is (or at least should be) completely and utterly sinless if they are truly in Christ. On the other hand are those who say that a Christian should expect not only to sin in their life, but to continue to struggle with sin, sometimes to the point of feeling despair.

It would appear on the surface that these are the only two options, and since none of us really honestly claims to be perfect, then the correct answer must be the second one. Sin is here to stay in this lifetime, and there is no hope of freedom from it until we die.

Well, as could probably be expected by the way I phrased the previous paragraph, I believe the answer lies somewhere in the middle. OK, so maybe this won’t be so uncontroversial after all, but try to hang with me before scrolling down to the comments section! ;)

I have a real problem with the “sin will always keep us trapped” teaching. And that problem is simply that I see something completely different in Scripture. For example, take a look at the verses I quoted above from Titus. I intentionally used the NIV here, even though my automatic Scripture reference linking plugin is set up (by me) to link to the NASB. I chose the NIV because I think it captures the bluntness of what Paul said to Titus in that passage.

Paul tells Titus that “the grace of God…teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness….” The NASB says more formally that it “instruct[s] us to deny ungodliness”, which just doesn’t quite carry the same punch, in my opinion. To “deny ungodliness” sounds to me more like a refusal to acknowledge it (although I do recognize the meaning of the word “deny” is completely appropriate in context). The NIV says that we are able to say “No” to it. That’s powerful, in my opinion.

You see, that removes a lot all of the excuses that we like to give for remaining in sin. The “just say ‘No’” slogan was used in an anti-drug campaign back in the Reagan presidency. The simplicity of the notion of just saying “No” was recognized by many. But the idea that we somehow have the power in and of ourselves misses the point. The source of the power comes not from our own endeavors, but from the grace of God within us.

So, what does this mean for sin in the life of the believer? Quite honestly, I think it means that we have no excuse. Paul does not say that the grace only partially appeared. He does not say that this is part of some “already/not yet” tension within the kingdom of God.

How can I say that so confidently? Well, look at the rest of the statement by Paul. The grace of God teaches us “to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope….” (emphasis mine) He does not say that this ability to live a righteous life will come after Jesus returns. But rather, in this present age, that grace gives us the power and ability to say “No” to ungodliness and live an upright, godly life.

For many who believe that the life of sin and struggle with the same is simply “being real” and being honest, a key passage is Romans 7. Now, I will be the first to state that I do not have the complete answer as to the meaning of Romans 7, but the debate generally revolves around the question, “Is Paul describing a pre-conversion experience, or post-conversion experience?” Briefly put, I have seen two arguments in favor of Paul describing the present condition of a believer that bear any merit.

  1. Paul speaks in the present tense
  2. Every Christian we know still sins from time to time

I can’t completely explain the use of the present tense, but I think there’s a lot to be said for what appears before and after Romans 7 (for those playing along at home, that would be more specifically Romans 6 and Romans 8!) Because in those chapters surrounding Romans 7, Paul also talks in the present tense about us being “freed from sin” (Romans 6:7), not being “in the flesh”, but being “in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9), etc. I think we err to dismiss the teaching of chapters 6 and 8 in favor of the argument for the present condition of a believer in chapter 7.

And now, looking at the passage under consideration in Titus, we have Paul saying that the grace of God enables us to live a life that is pleasing to God in the here and now! Paul doesn’t go on and on in Titus about how he’s not really living there because some element of the kingdom hasn’t yet been fulfilled.

Similarly, a well-known statement in 1 Corinthians 10:13 assures us that there is a “way of escape” from every temptation. Is there ever a point where we can say, “Oh, I’m still caught in this struggle with sin, so I just have to endure it”? I’m not convinced there is.

So, what to do with the existence of sin in the life of a believer? Is there a balance to be found? Is there some “middle ground” between the two positions, as I stated at the start? I believe there is.

I believe the middle ground is to acknowledge that we have everything available to us through Christ (i.e., the indwelling Holy Spirit) to live a life that is not characterized by sin. More specifically, I think we need to acknowledge that any detour from the path of righteousness into sin is not because something is yet to be fulfilled in the kingdom, but rather that we have not availed ourselves of the grace given to us.

Do I claim to live a sinless life? No. I would be dishonest if I did. But I must place the blame for that sin squarely on myself. In a situation where I sin, I choose to sin. I choose to ignore the “way of escape”, and I choose not to say “No” to ungodliness. I have not allowed God’s grace to live through me and be my teacher in righteousness. To claim otherwise is to say that Christ has not done enough for me.

Until next time,

steve :)

33 Responses to “Just Say “No”


  • Rod
    January 2nd, 2007 23:58
    1

    Good post, Steve.

    The voice that speaks most clearly to me on this issue is Dallas Willard. I’ve written about this in some detail. But one of his main points is that grace is opposed to earning, but not to effort.

    Paul talks at length about his own effort. And he summons his readers to their own concentrated effort.

    Paul deals the death-blow to the popular perception in Romans 6:1. We do not glorify God by becoming comfortable with sin.

    Have a great year,

    Rod

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 3rd, 2007 00:02
    2

    Rod, thanks for commenting so fast on this post! I hope to get back to our email discussion about Dallas Willard’s writings. I haven’t been moving as fast on those as I would like to! But I haven’t forgotten, either.

    The point about grace being opposed to earning, not to effort, is an interesting one. I have to meditate on that a bit. I’m inclined to agree on the surface.

    Have a great year, yourself. I hope this isn’t your only comment for 2007! ;)

  • Nicholas Cardot
    January 3rd, 2007 00:03
    3

    Good post. Christ promised that he would not bring a temptation into our life but what we would be able to resist. We can do all things through him. You shed a good light on these ideas.

  • Tony Sisk
    January 3rd, 2007 01:23
    4

    Steve,

    I think you may be hitting on the old Puritan idea of mortification; not something you hear taught very much anymore. You summed up the middle ground perfectly. The Apostle John taught us that though we may sin, sin in and of itself as a lifestyle is not a possibility for one who is truly in Christ. (Could that possibly explain the use of the present tense?)

    We do not avail ourselves of the potential of freedom from sin; most Christians I know are content to limp along struggling with that same “stubborn sin” failing to realize the power to overcome is within arm’s reach.

    Excellent post!

  • ded
    January 3rd, 2007 09:21
    5

    Steve, great to see you “back” at your blog.

    I have always thought that Titus 2:11-14 could be posted as an abstract at the beginning of the NT. How succinct it is of all we believe and hold precious!!

    Great post! In my mind, your second position description of expecting sin and living with it to the point of despair is both a cause and an effect of apostasy (read that as dead Christianity). It is a very natural reality to be depressed by sin, be convicted it is wrong, then label it as “my cross to bear”, thus effectually giving yourself permission to fail as a lifestyle. Hmmmmmm, isn’t such holding to a form of godliness but denying the power thereof?

    A pertinent topic here is our understanding, or perhaps misunderstanding, of judgment between believers. What is the contrast between how we hold up the standard of holiness versus bringing comfort and restoration to the fallen? How do we react and treat one another when failure occurs? How do we treat those who appear to us to be habitual in their sin? When does failure become our lifestyle?

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 3rd, 2007 09:42
    6

    Nicholas, thanks for the feedback. “We can do all things through Him” definitely applies to the area of saying “No” to sin.

    Tony, thanks for your thoughts, too. Could you add a bit more to your parenthetical question about the present tense? I’m not sure I quite got what you were thinking there. I would love to get more thoughts from you on this.

    ded, Glad to “see” you again, too! :) Happy New Year to you. I hope your vacation was relaxing and enjoyable for the family, and that it’s not too hard getting back into the routine with your students today! By the way, we’re going to have a fellowship here this Sunday, probably about 4ish. You know - “come when you can, leave when you must”.

    You asked: What is the contrast between how we hold up the standard of holiness versus bringing comfort and restoration to the fallen?

    This is a wonderful question, and one that really does need to be addressed. I’ve had some thoughts floating around my head in the past month or so about how some high-profile “falls” were handled recently, and may blog about them. Your question really flows right into that topic, in my opinion.

  • Gordon Cloud
    January 3rd, 2007 10:27
    7

    Great post, Steve. Paul told us in Romans 6 that we should not “yield our members as instruments of unrighteousness”. To me, this definitely indicates that we have a choice.

  • jadasgigi
    January 3rd, 2007 12:15
    8

    I am reminded of the adulterous woman about to be stoned to whom Jesus simply said….”go and sin no more”…
    Happy New Year!

  • Alan Knox
    January 3rd, 2007 16:01
    9

    Steve,

    Happy New Year, welcome back, and great post!

    Perhaps another passage that follows along with what you are saying would be 1 John 1:6-10:

    If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

    We usually take these verses individually, but read together they seem to indicate the same tension that you mention in your post.

    -Alan

  • Alex Jordan
    January 3rd, 2007 20:50
    10

    Hello Steve

    This is my first time visiting your blog and I think this is a very interesting first post for the New Year. I agree with your conclusions wholeheartedly. Christians are not to be overcome by sin– since we are those who have died to sin and have been given grace to have faith that overcomes (1 John 5: 4) and enables us to say “no” to ungodliness.

    However, as you and others point out, sin is a present, continuing reality that we we cannot, indeed must not, deny (1 John 1:8). This is one reason we “groan inwardly” as we await our full redemption (Romans 8: 21-23).

    Regarding Romans 7, I think it is absolutely clear that in this chapter when Paul describes the inner struggle with sin he writes about his own personal experience, as a believer. The very fact of Paul’s hatred for the sin he is doing demonstrates this. Does the non-believer “delight in the law of God in his inner being”, or describe his sin as “the very thing I hate”? Does he “agree with the law, that it is good?” No. It is the believer who is so disturbed and distraught over his sin that he becomes “wretched” over it (the unregenerate, on the other hand, “loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil”- John 3:19).

    Personally I’m encouraged that, by inspiration of the Spirit, Paul spoke so openly about his struggle with sin, because it helps me to know I’m not alone in my struggle. Paul’s description seems meant to highlight the “problem”– that the sinful flesh continually vies with our newly created spirit for ascendancy in our lives. But Paul’s optimistic and triumphant conclusion in Romans 8 is that victory is found when we learn to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh, and it is clear that he sees this victory of spirit over flesh as something we can learn to live in, as well as being the certain destiny of every true believer- Romans 8: 29-39).

    By the way, John Piper at desiringgod.com has been preaching an excellent series, “Who Is This Divided Man?”, on this very topic.

    Blessings,

    Alex

  • Tony Sisk
    January 3rd, 2007 23:40
    11

    Steve,

    Brother Alan stole my thunder! :)

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 4th, 2007 23:19
    12

    I am so sorry I have not responded yet to many of these comments. I’ve been a bit under the weather, and also still trying to catch up on everything from the holidays!!

    Gordon, yes I agree with your assessment of Romans 6. We have to make the choice to view ourselves the way God views us.

    JG, Happy new year to you, too!

    Alan, I thought about bringing 1 John into the mix as well, so thanks for mentioning that.

    By the way, I really appreciated this statement: We usually take these verses individually…. I am realizing more and more how this leads to bad thinking.

    There is way too much cutting of Scripture up into little pieces that takes place in so many areas of our thinking. I’m trying very hard to break free from that.

    Alex, welcome to the blog. I appreciate your input, and you are welcome to comment here more.

    I’m not ready to fully accept your “absolutely clear” reading of Romans 7 yet, but don’t have a clear rebuttal for you, either.

    One thing I am doing some meditating on right now, though (and have been since writing this post, even before your comment) is Paul’s use of the word “law” in Romans 6-8. There seemed to be a tension brought on by the Old Covenant law that is what Paul is referring to. That of wanting in one’s mind to please God, yet not having the freedom from the flesh to do so. I dunno…just thinking out loud.

    You said, “…it helps me to know I’m not alone in my struggle.” This is actually what I was trying to warn against in my post, however. To make it sound overly simplistic, what’s to struggle with? If we have everything available to us to say “No”, then should there even be a “struggle”?

    I fear that continuing to use language such as you did encourages us to remain in that place of “struggle”, and not focus on the deliverance that is ours through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    But I also recognize that many believers disagree with me on that. Ironically, in focusing on the “clear” reading you see in Romans 7, you affirmed the very antithesis of the “clear” reading I see in 6 and 8! ;)

    Blessings, and thanks again for coming by.

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 4th, 2007 23:21
    13

    Oh, and Tony, are you saying that Alan’s use of 1 John was what you were getting at in your earlier comment?

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 4th, 2007 23:27
    14

    Some additional thoughts on 1 John, however…

    If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    I have wondered for a while if the part about saying “we have no sin” or that “we have not sinned” is referencing the position on which we come to Christ in the first place for salvation.

    Let me flesh this out a bit: Only by first admitting that there is a sin problem is there the possibility of being forgiven of our sins and being cleansed from all unrighteousness.

    I actually think that 1 John 1:9 is not so applicable to the ongoing life of the believer (I’m open to challenge on this, by the way), but that the more applicable verse for believers is in the next chapter:

    My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1, ESV)

    Thoughts?

  • Alan Knox
    January 4th, 2007 23:50
    15

    Steve,

    Good thoughts on 1 John. Of course, 1 John 2:1 immediately follows 1 John 1:6-10. I think it would be difficult for me to say that vs. 8-9 are for the initial life (?) of the believer while the remaining verses are for the ongoing life (?) of the believer.

    Either way, 1 John 2:1 seems to have the ongoing life of the believer in view. John is writing to believers 1) so that they would not sin and 2) so that when they do sin, they realize there is an advocate.

    This sounds like it may be a recaptulation of the previous verses.

    -Alan

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 4th, 2007 23:58
    16

    …and you may well be correct, Alan. It’s still something I’m thinking through. Some things are absolutely clear, though, to me, in 1 John:

    1. No one is without sin at some point (cf. Romans 3:23)
    2. Christians should not be marked by sin as a general characteristic or ongoing indicator in their life

    On that, I think we definitely agree. I just was exploring the idea of 1:6 beginning a progression that continued on into 2:1 and following, not seeing 2:1 as a recap of chapter 1.

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 5th, 2007 00:00
    17

    oh, and I forgot point 3 in my list:

    3. There is a remedy for sin!! :)

  • Alan Knox
    January 5th, 2007 00:21
    18

    Steve,

    It is not fun to disagree with you. You could at least call me by some deragotory name.

    Yes, we do agree on all three of your points. And, I agree with your initial post. Oh, well, maybe we can fight over the next one.

    -Alan

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 5th, 2007 00:37
    19

    Alan, sorry to disappoint you, brother! ;) Do you have any suggestions for topics on which you think we could fight? hehe

  • Gordon Cloud
    January 5th, 2007 02:02
    20

    Steve, if I may offer my limited perspective on I John 1, I agree with you that we should not chop it up into fine pieces.

    The first chapter is about walking in the light with Christ. As we walk in fellowship with Him, that light reveals our sinfulness. I believe the “saying that we have no sin” refers to us trying to explain away what God has pointed out as sin. Sometimes we try to be “spiritual lawyers” and profess our innocence even though God has clearly identified something in our lives as sin.

    I believe I John 1:9 upholds this as “confess” is translated from “homologeo”. True confession is agreeing with God about our sin rather than denying it.

    Now, add $10.00 to my opinion and you can take Christy to Starbuck’s. :-)

    Hope you get to feeling better.

  • ded
    January 5th, 2007 07:14
    21

    This discussion had to reach the word struggle.
    Though, I agree with you, Steve: What’s there to struggle about if we have everything we need?

    Yet, experience tells me that I “struggle”, and I hear others give witness to it as well. Let us not get lost in how we emotionally carry that word!

    I have come to understand the tension here in simple terms, though hopefully not simplistic. When I realize my feelings, thoughts, words or actions fail holiness…say about 60 or 70 times a day, and that is just what I catch…am I struggling? Or is that the nature of walking out salvation with fear and trembling?

    I think that being in the spirit of Christ and NOT walking in perfection go together. I can hear the incredulous, “What!” from here. Though I believe I am in the Spirit, I remain my sinful natural human self. This is the humble truth, though I rarely hear anybody speak in such terms. That I actually realize some of my failure as failure is a grace from God because I am in the Spirit! The Christian walk is about learning to walk as Holy and Perfect when everything I know naturally is sinful. Is this a struggle?

    When I fail holiness, there is always one explanation. Always. My inner man loved me more than I loved God and chose what I wanted. I acted in free will. Am I struggling?

    As I learn how to refuse my self-love and replace it with love for God how many times will it take for me to reach for myself (sin) before I exercise my will toward God? 7 x 70?

    Is that struggle? I think this is the exact state of affairs God intended His intervention of the Son into humanity to accomplish. We honestly face our sinfulness and chose otherwise based on our love for God, nothing else. How do we manage our responsibility in this? Being religious in self-righteousness doesn’t cut it, eh? We by faith accept that despite the reality of our sinful natures, we pursue God believing He completes a work in us, a work of causing our new spiritual man He birthed to grow. This new man is fully able to always say, “No” to sin. My old man is not.

    The path may be fraught with stumbling, but it is the path where His light is leading. The semantics of it can become clouded in earthly, natural logic, but the Truth remains…Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. His in-dwelling presence is the path, and getting our souls to line up with the Spirit of God will be evidenced by us worshipping the Father in Spirit and Truth…by love for Him altering the way we exercise our wills.

    Is getting there a struggle? If we see it as such for any reason, yes. Can we carry His burden of love? Yes, as new men we can. We have all we need to do so.

    I am at school and really need to work, so apologizes ahead of time for any typo’s or lack of clarity…I am just hitting the post button!

  • Laurie Ann
    January 5th, 2007 08:38
    22

    Good way to start the year, Steve!

    My observation is that the analogy of the removal of the dross from the gold is very accurate in the life of a believer who walks in the Spirit.
    The biggest debris floats to the surface and is the “fruit of the flesh” Paul talks about in Galatians as being “obvious”. As time goes on, and we rid ourselves of the ‘biggies’, the more subtle things come to our attention.
    So, the sin we wrestle with is more and more the things of the heart, the things that seem like ‘no big deal’ to others less sanctified. Who cares if I’m impatient with strangers? God does. What if I cut short my time with God? Does it matter if I have bitterness toward a celebrity? These things continue to convict.
    And what I’ve seen is that this purification process defines whether someone continues to grow or not. If they say “no” to God because something is “just a little sin” that is the beginning of a downward spiral.
    And I’ve noticed that the amount of wrestling before repentance tends to get shorter - we learn how delicious repentance is, and we gladly surrender as soon as we see something unpleasing to our Lord.
    In regards to your question then, I believe that overcoming sin is a lifelong challenge — but if we are still wrestling at the same level, there is something wrong. There should be a progression from actually doing the things of the flesh, to flirting with temptation, to occasional thoughts and on to knowing that God’s grace is sufficient in our weakness! Big falls should become rarer, which is the opposite of what happens in the life of the unregenerate, whose “sin overtakes them” more and more.
    Blessings!

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 5th, 2007 10:39
    23

    Gordon, ded, and Laurie Ann, thank you all for contributing. I think we all do agree on the fact that recognizing sin in our lives and desiring the way of God instead of the way of the flesh is (should be) a part of our lives as maturing believers.

    I should also like to point out that this topic, in my heart at least (and I would guess in the hearts of most, if not all who have commented above) is more directed at myself than at others. In other words, I’m not making these points so that we can point to others and say, “They’re not measuring up.” It’s more about me rejecting (maybe too strong a word) for my own use some popular explanations and excuses for sin.

  • Alan Knox
    January 5th, 2007 12:02
    24

    Steve,

    I didn’t have a chance to look this up earlier, but I finally looked up the meaning of the Greek word that the NIV translates “say no to”.

    BDAG Greek Lexicon: arneomai - to refuse to pay attention to, disregard, renounce.

    So, does the grace of God teach us to “refuse to pay attention to” ungodliness?

    -Alan

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 5th, 2007 12:12
    25

    Alan, in what sense? What would the implications be of “refusing to pay attention to” ungodliness as opposed to “saying ‘No’ to” it?

  • Alex Jordan
    January 5th, 2007 12:20
    26

    Hi Steve:

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my comments.

    I think I understand what you’re saying– if we have the resources needed, through Christ and the Word and the Holy Spirit, to overcome sin victoriously, why should the battle with sin be so difficult?

    But to describe the battle with sin as a “struggle” to me does not imply that it is not one in which we are not steadily making progress– as others here in their comments have eloquently concurred– it is simply an honest acknowledgment that in this lifetime, while I’m still in the mortal body, the sinful, evil tendencies of the flesh remain with me, always rising up–as a law– against the inner man that wants to please God (Romans 7:21). This is also why I think it so important to understand Romans 7 as Paul describing the believer’s conflict between his God-planted inner desire to please God in submitting to the Law that he recognizes as good, vs. the fleshly inevitability of disobeying the law.

    I realize some may interpret this chapter as Paul’s pre-conversion experience, because the picture of the Christian walk described seems pretty bleak, and does not seem like the “victorious” life promised or implied by Romans 6 and Romans 8. But I think Paul purposefully portrays the starkness of the battle between the sinful flesh and the godly desires God has planted in us through rebirth in Christ, to show how utterly useless it is to fight against the “law” of sin using the “will power” of the natural man. Only a higher, more powerful law, the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8: 2), can set me free from this “law of sin and death” at work in the members of my body. this concurs with what Jesus teaches us in John 6:63: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing”.

    I think there is a danger in interpreting this chapter as a portrait of the kind of day-to-day experience we should be having as Christians. I don’t think paul is saying that at all, especially when we see his conclusions in Romans 8. However I think there is an equal if not greater danger to view what Paul describes here as pre-Christian experience– because we perhaps think that the battle with sin will not continue, or that there is some kind of special experience I must have in my walk, or some special deliverance, that these struggles with sin may cease.

    I agree with the others here (ded, Laurie Ann) who seem to say that if we are honest we recognize that there is continuing struggle with sin but that progress is possible and indeed inevitable if we are Christ’s.

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 5th, 2007 12:33
    27

    Alex, I can certainly respect your conclusions. I’m sure much of this is semantics, and we’re probably not that much in disagreement (if at all).

    Our modernistic mindset constantly tries to categorize things in “either/or” mentalities, and I think that you and I are probably just emphasizing two sides of a “both/and”. Perhaps. I’m not certain, but it’s certainly not something I feel the need to argue with you about at this point. (Unless, like Alan, you are looking for a fight with me!! hehe ;))

    I think there is a danger in interpreting this chapter as a portrait of the kind of day-to-day experience we should be having as Christians. I don’t think paul is saying that at all, especially when we see his conclusions in Romans 8.

    Exactly. That’s pretty much what I was trying to get across, so we likely are in agreement.

    However I think there is an equal if not greater danger to view what Paul describes here as pre-Christian experience….

    Fair enough. I can accept that “disclaimer” on what I wrote. :)

    Thanks again for your thought-provoking and gracious comments on this. It’s a pleasure to have commenters like you here. I appreciate and think very highly of all who contribute to discussions such as this.

  • Alan Knox
    January 5th, 2007 13:25
    28

    Steve,

    Hey, I’m just asking the questions… I’m not answering them. That’s your mission… if you choose to accept it.

    -Alan

  • Alex Jordan
    January 5th, 2007 13:38
    29

    Steve-

    This has been a very interesting and enjoyable discussion. By the way, if you’d like to visit my blog sometime and leave a comment, that would be great.

    I have recently been doing a series on Arminianism vs. Calvinistic/Reformed thinking (quite a controversial topic ;)). But it’s been difficuly for me to post the articles in the series as frequently as I would like, since 1: I like to be thorough; 2. I consider myself a relative newcomer to the Reformed/Arminian debate and so I’m trying to make sure what I say is accurate; and 3. I’ve been sick a lot.

    But I would certainly covet this kind of thought-provoking, quality commentary/discussion on my blog :).

    By the way I also am a singer/songwriter– though not professional, I am hoping to do much more with my musical gifts…

  • Tony Sisk
    January 6th, 2007 08:18
    30

    Steve,

    Oh, and Tony, are you saying that Alan’s use of 1 John was what you were getting at in your earlier comment?

    Pretty much, though I would like to point out that in 1 John 2:1, where John writes, “…I write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins…” this expresses the point Alan hit on way up there in the thread, but then you guys went a different direction.

    The verbs “sin” and “sins” in the aforementioned verse are in the subjunctive mood, which I am sure you know, is that mood of possibility.

    It is very possible that a believer sins, but it is not required. :) I think an apt translation could be (and I am NO Greek scholar, btw), “I write to you so that you may not continue in sin. But if anyone does sin we have an Advocate” (ptl!). That may express the mood of potentiality inherent in the verse.

    Individual sins in moments of time are a possibility for the believer, but not a lifestyle, for we have an Advocate; though often we do not avail ourselves of the forgiving power, grace, mercy, and liberation that Advocate affords us :(.

    Blessings; great post!

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 6th, 2007 10:30
    31

    Tony, great commentary on 1 John 2:1. I couldn’t have said it better!!

  • Susan
    January 6th, 2007 19:47
    32

    I LOVE this post!! I think it’s such an important thing that Christians need to think about. As my DH has said, “Can you go without sin for one minute?” We all say, “Sure!” Then why not an hour? Two hours? A day? A week?

    I do not claim to be “without sin”…but I do believe that we (as Christians) DO move on towards perfection.

    Blessings.

    :-) Susan

  • Steve Sensenig
    January 6th, 2007 21:55
    33

    Susan, thanks for the very positive feedback! :)

    You make an excellent point. I have often said that the Christian life should be lived “moment by moment” in the very same sense of what your DH was saying.

    The problem in a lot of situations is that we tend to live life on “auto-pilot” and fail to recognize our opportunity in every moment to choose holiness.

    Thanks for stopping by!

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