Comments on: Q and A about Simple Church (part 1) http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/ Random discussions about various topics, with an emphasis on simple church and other out-of-the-box thoughts. Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:49:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Theological Musings » Q and A about Simple Church (part 2) http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2000 Theological Musings » Q and A about Simple Church (part 2) Sat, 13 Jan 2007 16:59:32 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-2000 [...] In part 1, I dealt with the first of three questions from Gordon Cloud regarding some differences in the simpler approach to church “structure”, vis-à-vis more traditional, conventional models of church administration. In this post, I would like to move on to the second and third questions. To review, the three questions were: [...] [...] In part 1, I dealt with the first of three questions from Gordon Cloud regarding some differences in the simpler approach to church “structure”, vis-à-vis more traditional, conventional models of church administration. In this post, I would like to move on to the second and third questions. To review, the three questions were: [...]

]]> By: Earl Flask http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1995 Earl Flask Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:42:08 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1995 Well written! One of the best discriptions of elders I've read. Well written! One of the best discriptions of elders I’ve read.

]]> By: Gordon Cloud http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1966 Gordon Cloud Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:56:31 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1966 Likewise, Heather! :-) Likewise, Heather! :-)

]]> By: Alan Knox http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1957 Alan Knox Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:02:46 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1957 "simple" church... another modifier... tsk tsk tsk -Alan “simple” church… another modifier… tsk tsk tsk

-Alan

]]> By: Heather http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1951 Heather Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:13:39 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1951 Hi Gordon ;) I appreciate you! :) Hi Gordon ;)

I appreciate you!

:)

]]> By: Gordon Cloud http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1949 Gordon Cloud Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:49:16 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1949 Steve, this is a well-written post. As I read it, I am coming to realize that our differences of opinion in the role of pastor may have less to do with our interpretation of Scripture and more to do with "different administrations". The quiz that Alan recently posted concerning what model of church we are indicated that there was a difference between the two of us (imagine that). It seems to me that most pastor's leadership style stems from a combination of personality, giftedness, experience and to some degree external influences such as mentors, other pastors, etc. The pitfalls of pastoral leadership are very real and are unfortunately too common, yet I would be very hesitant to use the term "inevitable" (hi, Heather :-) ) as I have seen some godly pastors who served faithfully until death. Again, this is an excellent post and I appreciate the thought that you put into it. Steve, this is a well-written post. As I read it, I am coming to realize that our differences of opinion in the role of pastor may have less to do with our interpretation of Scripture and more to do with “different administrations”. The quiz that Alan recently posted concerning what model of church we are indicated that there was a difference between the two of us (imagine that).

It seems to me that most pastor’s leadership style stems from a combination of personality, giftedness, experience and to some degree external influences such as mentors, other pastors, etc.

The pitfalls of pastoral leadership are very real and are unfortunately too common, yet I would be very hesitant to use the term “inevitable” (hi, Heather :-) ) as I have seen some godly pastors who served faithfully until death.

Again, this is an excellent post and I appreciate the thought that you put into it.

]]> By: ded http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1947 ded Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:51:18 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1947 Steve, you said, "...I also believe there are exceptions to every possible criticism or positive comment that can be made about any form of church." We Christians, so like all our human counterparts are so hard to box, eh?! There are no formulas that apply. Alan, you said, "Everyone who is part of the church - part of the people of God - is my brother/sister." Glad we can see ourselves as brothers! Steve, you said, “…I also believe there are exceptions to every possible criticism or positive comment that can be made about any form of church.”

We Christians, so like all our human counterparts are so hard to box, eh?! There are no formulas that apply.

Alan, you said, “Everyone who is part of the church – part of the people of God – is my brother/sister.”

Glad we can see ourselves as brothers!

]]> By: Alan Knox http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1946 Alan Knox Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:53:00 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1946 Steve, I appreciate that you begin by stating that you are not against any particular form of church. One of the things that I have noticed about those outside of the traditional church is that "they" tend to write more about what they are against than what they are for. I also love the church. The church reveals itself in many different forms. I believe that some may forms be more scriptural than others. But, that is irrelevant. Everyone who is part of the church - part of the people of God - is my brother/sister. -Alan Steve,

I appreciate that you begin by stating that you are not against any particular form of church. One of the things that I have noticed about those outside of the traditional church is that “they” tend to write more about what they are against than what they are for.

I also love the church. The church reveals itself in many different forms. I believe that some may forms be more scriptural than others. But, that is irrelevant. Everyone who is part of the church – part of the people of God – is my brother/sister.

-Alan

]]> By: Heather http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1943 Heather Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:33:18 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/01/09/q-and-a-about-simple-church-part-1/#comment-1943 Steve - Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Just a tiny, tiny bit of background/info on me ... I am one who is coming from the "traditional" church mindset/experience my entire life (I HATE labels & jargon, but for the sake of discussion I'll use them with quotation marks) -- one senior pastor/elder, deacons oe elders who "rule" (but don't necessarily minister), etc. My husband is "in ministry" and we have been in ministry (as in "on staff" -- hate that term too) for almost 3 years. Before that we have always been heavily involved with youth ministry. I have been in small churches and large churches, growing churches and dead churches. And my husband and I have many good friends in various aspects of "full-time ministry" in various churches, with various structures and visions, in various places. Did I over-use the word "various"? LOL ... I do agree with you on this point, and did when the discussion was taking place previously. Brandon and I were talking about this the other night. Our pastor is wonderful - he's a great pastor/shepherd to us personally, but it's because I went to him as my pastor (and not the other way around). I have a pretty open and outgoing personality and so that's easy for me. In our previous church experience (before our current pastor) the Senior Pastor there would tell you that he wasn't very good at pastoring, but he was excellent at preaching (the latter are my words not his). But again, I sought him out as my pastor and so he was a good pastor to us personally. But what if I had not sought these men out to pastor me? Would they have sought me out? I don't mean this as an insult, but I think the answer is "no". How could they? These were both churches with well-over 1000 members. The man-made responsibilities that come with shepherding/pastoring a flock of that size are burdensome, to say the least. And what of those who do not or will not seek the "top-guy" out to be their shepherd? Many do not because they are shy or reserved. But from talking with people and from experience, many more do not seek him out because of the exact reason that you stated: "...the propensity for leadership to turn into a power trip for the one “at the top”. This plays out in churches much, much more than it ever should." Again, I have seen that played out more than not, personally and among friends. What's the saying ... Absolute power corrupts absolutely? I know that's about government, but it's true in this instance as well. Then many people put the senior pastor on a pedestal and he is untouchable, he is like a god and he is worshipped. And people are not genuine with him and he is not genuine with them, for the reasons you stated -- who can he trust? At this point many people are just vying for political positions and aren't genuinely caring about him, but more about themselves and how others see them and the brownie points they can earn, etc. Oh ... don't get me started on that point. I don't think these are ever the intentions (okay, I will say that for some it may be), but it winds up that way, unfortunately. They are just some of those seemingly inevitable things that happens with this type of church structure. Trust me when I say I have seen them and have heard friends talk about them in other places with the most genuine, well-meaning pastors. They just happen ... I'm not sure how to prevent them from happening? I know this comment is long and I have so many thoughts on this particular issue, so I hope that I articulated some of them properly :) ... looking forward to your answer to the next questions! Blessings! Steve -

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Just a tiny, tiny bit of background/info on me …

I am one who is coming from the “traditional” church mindset/experience my entire life (I HATE labels & jargon, but for the sake of discussion I’ll use them with quotation marks) — one senior pastor/elder, deacons oe elders who “rule” (but don’t necessarily minister), etc. My husband is “in ministry” and we have been in ministry (as in “on staff” — hate that term too) for almost 3 years. Before that we have always been heavily involved with youth ministry.

I have been in small churches and large churches, growing churches and dead churches. And my husband and I have many good friends in various aspects of “full-time ministry” in various churches, with various structures and visions, in various places. Did I over-use the word “various”? LOL …

I do agree with you on this point, and did when the discussion was taking place previously. Brandon and I were talking about this the other night. Our pastor is wonderful – he’s a great pastor/shepherd to us personally, but it’s because I went to him as my pastor (and not the other way around). I have a pretty open and outgoing personality and so that’s easy for me.

In our previous church experience (before our current pastor) the Senior Pastor there would tell you that he wasn’t very good at pastoring, but he was excellent at preaching (the latter are my words not his). But again, I sought him out as my pastor and so he was a good pastor to us personally.

But what if I had not sought these men out to pastor me? Would they have sought me out? I don’t mean this as an insult, but I think the answer is “no”. How could they? These were both churches with well-over 1000 members. The man-made responsibilities that come with shepherding/pastoring a flock of that size are burdensome, to say the least.

And what of those who do not or will not seek the “top-guy” out to be their shepherd? Many do not because they are shy or reserved. But from talking with people and from experience, many more do not seek him out because of the exact reason that you stated: “…the propensity for leadership to turn into a power trip for the one “at the top”. This plays out in churches much, much more than it ever should.”

Again, I have seen that played out more than not, personally and among friends. What’s the saying … Absolute power corrupts absolutely? I know that’s about government, but it’s true in this instance as well.

Then many people put the senior pastor on a pedestal and he is untouchable, he is like a god and he is worshipped. And people are not genuine with him and he is not genuine with them, for the reasons you stated — who can he trust? At this point many people are just vying for political positions and aren’t genuinely caring about him, but more about themselves and how others see them and the brownie points they can earn, etc. Oh … don’t get me started on that point.

I don’t think these are ever the intentions (okay, I will say that for some it may be), but it winds up that way, unfortunately. They are just some of those seemingly inevitable things that happens with this type of church structure. Trust me when I say I have seen them and have heard friends talk about them in other places with the most genuine, well-meaning pastors. They just happen … I’m not sure how to prevent them from happening?

I know this comment is long and I have so many thoughts on this particular issue, so I hope that I articulated some of them properly :) … looking forward to your answer to the next questions!

Blessings!

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