I’m a Mormon, and Didn’t Even Know It!
ome of my regular readers may remember an interesting discussion we had here last September regarding the essentials of Christianity. One of those posts carried a tongue-in-cheek title of “But What About Those Mormons?” The basic gist of that post and other posts was that we often seek to define Christianity by who or what our definition excludes.
The reason I brought up the particular topic of Mormons was because of some comments on a post prior to that one where some expressed concern that the “short list” of things I felt needed to be agreed upon for fellowship was sufficiently short that it “would include Mormons as Christians.” This sentiment seemed to indicate that the desire on the part of some is to begin with a presupposition of who’s “in” and who’s “out” and then find what those who are “in” agree on and make that the basis for salvation.
Well, with that in mind, I wanted to share with my readers a comment that was recently made to me. A family that Christy and I have gotten to know over the past few months came over to our house for dinner last night. We had a great time! They are a very sweet couple who have adorable identical twin toddler boys (each of which I consistently called by the other’s name through the whole evening!).
After dinner, the husband and I (I won’t reveal their names here since I did not ask their permission to do so) talked about spiritual topics. I knew prior to the time together that this family is part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormon Church. He was gracious enough to allow me to pepper him with questions and to share some of my own thoughts. It was a delightful conversation.
As we talked, and I shared some of the things that I have been mulling over for the last several years (many of which I’ve mused about here on this blog), he made a very interesting comment. He said, “If I didn’t know prior to this conversation, from the things that you are saying about God and the Bible, etc., I would think that you were a very good Mormon.”
(Insert pause here to allow my readers time to go remove my blog from their links, pray for my salvation, and mourn over the loss of their good friend…) 
No, seriously. I have to tell you that this comment took me quite by surprise. I wanted to share it here (I got his permission to do so) because I wanted to illustrate a point that I have been mulling over all day long now. It is the point that I tried to make last fall in the aforementioned post.
We can be so quick to write off entire groups of people because of what we think they believe. But I found in conversation last night that there are an awful lot of points of agreement. Some of my readers may disagree quite strongly, and I respect that.
Do I believe that Mormonism has all the answers? No, I don’t. And I was quite up front with my guest that I was not asking questions with the intent of converting to Mormonism. But at the same time, I would have to ask, is there any denomination, world religion, or belief system that has all the answers? I don’t think so.
One of the things I found out about Mormonism last night that I admire is that they respect truth wherever it is found. Is this not something that I, as a non-Mormon, can affirm? If truth comes from God — indeed, Jesus said that He is the truth — then truth is valid, even if it is found in some source other than what we perceive to be a “safe” source. Does Paul not say in Romans 1 that even creation speaks truth about God?
Another thing that came out of our discussion last night is the fact that each one of us is responsible for trusting God for ourselves, and seeking the truth that comes from God within our own heart. We can’t ride on the coattails of some other person, teacher, or leader. This, I believe, is consistent with Scripture (i.e., the Bereans searching out Scripture to verify Paul’s message, our instructions to weigh prophecy, test spirits, God’s instructions to Israel to test the words of a prophet, etc.).
Some of my readers might not understand why I would think that it was a good thing to be told that I sounded like a good Mormon. But I’ll tell you why I actually took that as a positive thing. That shows me that there are many, many points of agreement between us that could have been missed if I just wrote him off as “just a Mormon”. And I, for one, am glad I took the time to look for those points of agreement without jumping to conclusions.
In the same way that I desire not to write someone off because of a group they’re associated with, I likewise do not take last night’s conversation to lead me to a conclusion that all within Mormonism are saved. But then, I don’t operate on the assumption that all within the Baptist camp, or Methodist, or Presbyterian, etc. are saved, either! In other words, salvation is something which each individual must receive themselves. And we should engage in fellowship on that basis.
As for the fruit I have seen in my friends’ lives, and the conversation I had last night, I came away more convinced than ever that they are my brother and sister in Christ. And when I said that, my dear friend responded with, “And we would say the same about you.”
Until next time,
steve 
March 3rd, 2007 19:00
Steve,
I have several different reactions to your post.
I agree with your attitude toward those those believe differently. I think we should be loving and kind to all our “neighbors,” no matter what they believe.
I also think it is good to respect what they believe. Christians are too often quick to belittle the doctrines of other faiths without ever taking the time to understand them.
Our ultimate commitment should be to the truth. We should “respect truth wherever it is found.” We should even be prepared to discard what we’ve always believed if we discover that it is not true.
However, this does not mean that we should minimize significant differences in basic beliefs. I have a friend who is a Buddhist priest. We respect each other, but we understand that our beliefs cannot be “reconciled.” He is a good person. You might even say that his life “bears good fruit.” But he is not my “brother in Christ.”
If I treated him as if our different beliefs were inconsequential, we could not be true friends. (Some of the other clergy in town do just that.)
I mean no offense to your friend. If I were in your place, I would likely accept him as a friend myself. But you really owe it to him and to yourself to be more careful about embracing him as one who believes essentially the same thing as you do.
Mormonism and Christianity are not reconcilable any more than Buddhism and Christianity are.
Leslie Newbigin talks about his experience in India where the local people worshipped Jesus alongside other Hindu deities.
“Jesus was honored, worshipped, as one of the many manifestations of deity in the course of human history. To me, as a foreign missionary, it was obvious that this was not a step toward the conversion of India. It was the cooption of Jesus into the Hindu worldview. Jesus had become just one figure in the endless cycle of karma and samsara, the wheel of being in which we are all caught up. He had been domesticated into the Hindu worldview. That view remained unchallenged.”
The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Christianity.
This is not to say that your friend is bad or that you should not be a friend to him. But insofar that you both are true to the creeds of your different faiths, you do not believe essentially the same thing.
March 3rd, 2007 20:47
Steve,
I once heard a noted theologian say Mormons make the best neighbours…but that doesn’t make them Christians.
You can be a Mormon or a Christian - not both. This reality is independent of how nice Mormons may be.
March 3rd, 2007 23:54
Steve,
I was browsing around trying to find out more about what people thought about me, a Mormon and I must say that I enjoyed your comments greatly. I admit that we all have different beliefs and truths can be found everywhere. But I am truly grateful that you have called my religion Christian. I love my Savior and pray that I can be more like Jesus everyday.
Thankyou
March 4th, 2007 08:07
Rod, thank you for at least starting with some points of agreement!
I’m not sure that I see the comparison of Mormonism and Buddhism or Hinduism. That seems like a stretch to me.
More importantly, the point of my post here has more to do with dealing with individual confessions, rather than “guilt by association”. This post in no way endorses Mormonism wholesale.
You wrote: The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Christianity.
I’d be very interested in getting more thoughts from you on this, Rod. It’s easy to make statements like this, but on what basis, and on what authority? (I mean that sincerely, not as a retort.)
It’s good to see you again, Rod. Hope you are doing well, my friend.
March 4th, 2007 08:28
Bill, thanks for commenting. I’m not sure if I’ve seen you comment here before or not, so if this is the first time, welcome!
My response to you is similar to my response to Rod. I find it intriguing that the two of you are able to know what my friend believes, and by correlation how much I misunderstood in my conversation with him, better than I.
I would be willing to bet that if I had simply recounted my conversation without mentioning the word “Mormon”, no one would be quick to jump in and say, “Ahhhh, but there’s no way your friend is a Christian.” And, once again, this proves my point that we are more willing to judge people based on the group with which they hold association rather than on their own profession of faith.
You said, You can be a Mormon or a Christian - not both.
What support would you give for this statement?
I have had conversations with Calvinists who would make the same statement regarding non-Calvinists. Or non-Pentecostals who make the same statement about Pentecostals. Or, to be fair, Pentecostals who make that statement about non-Pentecostals! Or Protestants about Catholics.
If we look at the teaching of Jesus, one can easily imagine that his teaching on “who is my neighbor” was viewed rather horrifyingly by his listeners. After all, one could either be a true worshiper of God or be a Samaritan, but not both.
I find it interesting that you said that Mormons make the best neighbors (or neighbours, since you’re in Canada, I believe!). Why do they make such good neighbors? And what does that say about those of us who claim to worship the true God and yet aren’t good neighbors?
This really begs the question, then, at what point do we accept a person’s profession of faith for what it is? And another question that would be fair in this conversation would be related to Jesus’ teaching about the good Samaritan: At what point do we see the fruit in someone’s life and see that as reflecting Jesus? It is on this point that I think evangelical Christianity has made its worst mistakes.
Let’s say for the moment that your bold statement that I quoted is true. And let’s say that you lead a Mormon to true faith in “your” Jesus. Is your first move immediately following to insist that he leave the Mormon church?
See, it’s easy to sit back and make the kinds of statements that you and Rod have made. But the implications of those statements are, in my opinion, quite numerous and quite frightening.
In a nutshell, I think two points can be derived from the comments you and Rod have made here:
1. My friend is either lying or otherwise being deceptive about what he really believes, and
2. I am unable to discern that
March 4th, 2007 08:30
Steve,
I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, which is a predominately Roman Catholic town. Over the years I met a lot of people who were Catholics first and Christians second, and a few who were Christians first and Catholics second (I’ve also known some who were Baptists first and Christians second).
C.S. Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity that those who are closest to the center of their respective denominations often have more in common with each other than with those on the fringes of their own groups.
Fortunately, the final decision over any individual’s getting to heaven isn’t ours. I’m quite content to leave it in God’s hands–my duty is to love the people He brings into my path. The level of fellowship may be limited by our doctrinal differences at times–or by the current sins in our lives.
Phil Hawkins
March 4th, 2007 08:33
Michael, I’m grateful that my comments were encouraging to you. Feel free to hang around and help me learn even more about what we may or may not have in common.
I do want to make one small clarification. I have stopped short of endorsing Mormonism as a whole as “Christian”. This is not with any malicious intent, but rather just an admission of my own ignorance in the matter. I simply don’t know enough about what you believe to make that call.
However, as I have reiterated in my comments to others above, my desire is to see individuals as capable of expressing saving faith in Jesus instead of assuming that I know what they believe based on their affiliation.
I hope that helps. I’d love to hear more from you in this conversation, if you care to share.
March 4th, 2007 08:46
phil, thanks for your thoughts on this. You make some good points that seem to correlate with what I was trying to express here. I appreciate your input!
March 4th, 2007 10:46
Steve,
Thank you for the clarification. I guess what I really meant to say is that I am grateful that you took time to understand my religion. I think what this world needs, especially the USA, is more understanding and less fighting. That is why I enjoyed your comments so much. I did not feel like my beliefs were being attacked.
I do not pretend to think that everyone is going to come close to thinking the way I do, but I do think it is important to find common ground between us. I personally think Jesus would perfer us to find ways to live together in a peaceful manner then to fight about definitions.
Now I should mention that I was a mormon missionary for 2 years in Brazil, I hope that does not make anyone here hate me.
During that time I had a great chance to meet many people from different religions. Many of them didn’t want to be Mormon and I will respect that. I will say however that these people were wonderful individuals. Some of the most righteous people I have ever meet. I knew that Jesus was using them to do much good in this world. I know I will never share religions with them but I would love to have them as my neighbors.
March 4th, 2007 10:58
Steve,
I was very careful what I said, “Insofar that you both are true to the creeds of your different faiths, you do not believe essentially the same thing.”
I do not know what your friend believes. But I do know that the teachings of Mormonism and the teachings of Christianity are incompatible.
This is not a hunch or a feeling. It is based on the official teachings of the Church of the Latter-Day Saints.
I don’t have time to give a detailed answer right now. I will try to later today.
God Bless,
Rod
March 4th, 2007 11:43
Very good discussion.
Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 2:2 - “For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”
Our basis for fellowship with others should be based on Jesus, and not our agreements or disagreements with various scriptures, right?
March 4th, 2007 16:13
Steve, you must like worms, since this is such a big can! I’ll munch,too. In Ephesians it says there is “one faith”. Our many expressions of that one faith cloud our thinking. Looking at the number of Christian denominations, non-denoms., inter-denoms., ad infinitum, one may logically assume there are many Christian faiths. Here, we must submit experiential evidence to scriptural evidence. There is but ONE faith.
No religion is faith. Faith is not a religion. Religion in its etymology means: RE = again; -ligion(from the same root where get ligament) = connect. Religion = to connect again.
Religion is a man-made attempt to reconnect with the communion of God lost in Eden. All religions fail this. Practicing an “accepted” denominational religion is no different than practicing Mormonism. (That worm will probably come back to haunt me.) Religion is a self-righteous desire to be good enough practically to earn reconnection with God. It cannot be done.
The connection was re-established by Jesus, and His work is finished. Michael, the following is not aimed at you and your belief for I have heard many a Christian denominationalist and myself state the same: You said, “I…pray that I can be more like Jesus everyday.” Well, we can stop now. Everyone can. It cannot be done. Religious leaders that exhort their followers to “be more like Jesus” are leading people down a fruitless path.
We live in a “Right or Wrong” existence, our natural state since the fall. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…well…now we are all stuck in a Right/Wrong dichotomy. We understand naturally a right/wrong justification for everything. Stuck! Until we are in Jesus, the Tree of Life. We cannot become more like Jesus. The old man cannot be fixed or changed into anything spiritually valuable. Baptist, Charismatic, Reformed, Mormon and JW, etc. are all failing systems of man-made tradition with no life inherent in them. Where Jesus is carried in the heart, there is life. In order to have that life, one must enter into the ONE faith that exists: communion with God based on the cross of Jesus and lived by the power of His resurrection. Can a Mormon be Christian? Yes, in the same manner a Baptist or a Methodist can be…by rejecting faith in his or her practice of religion and instead live in the ONE faith: living in-dwelt by the presence of Jesus. What of one’s traditional religious practice? Let your renewed mind in Jesus, the Tree of Life, be your guide.
March 4th, 2007 18:28
Dear Steve,
I am going to try to cut and paste a quickie table I found via a google search comparing Mormon beliefs about Jesus and orthodox Christian ones. Based on what I know from other sources, I think the table is fair and fundamentally accurate. I do think that Mormons can really be saved and still believe they are Mormons. But I think that is possible because of their confusion about what they believe as Mormons not because true Mormon beliefs are compatible with historical/orthodox Christianity.
The Mormon Jesus Christ
A created being: the elder brother of Lucifer
The Biblical Jesus Christ
Uncreated God
The Mormon Jesus Christ
Common (one of many gods) and, in some ways, of minor important in the larger Mormon cosmology
The Biblical Jesus Christ
Unique (the Second Person of the one and only Godhead) and of supreme importance through time, eternity and all creation
The Mormon Jesus Christ
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the Father (Adam or Elohim) and Mary, thus not through a true virgin birth
The Biblical Jesus Christ
Conceived by the Holy Spirit, who supermaturally “overshadowed” Mary, thus a true virgin birth
The Mormon Jesus Christ
Once sinful and imperfect
The Biblical Jesus Christ
Eternally sinless and perfect
The Mormon Jesus Christ
Earned his own salvation (exaltation, godhood)
The Biblical Jesus Christ
As God, never required salvation
The Mormon Jesus Christ
A married polygamist? (At least implied. added by RDA)
The Biblical Jesus Christ
An unmarried monogamist
Source: John Weldon and John Ankerberg, Encyclopedia of Cults & New ReligionsOff-site Link, p. 299
March 4th, 2007 19:24
Steve and everyone else,
I have enjoyed this discussion greatly. Before I carry on I would like to mention Iraq. Iraq is in a desperate time right now. Two different sects of their religion are fighting with eachother, fighting to the point of bloodshed. I believe this is happening because they have not tried to understand each other. Now I am not saying that we are that bad here in the USA, but it is my fear that if such hatred and misunderstanding continues that it will only hurt our nation.
If I may ask a question. If we were to live back in the times of Christ and we wanted to find out more about Christ and his teachings who do you suppose would be our best source of information? If we went to the pharisees to ask their opinion of Christ what would they have told us? That he was of the Devil? What if we asked the Apostles? Would they not say that he was the son of God. What if he asked Jesus himself what he taught what would he say?
This is why I was glad that Steve went and talked to his mormon friend. If Steve went to others that hated the Mormons he would have gotten different information. I do not know everyones religion here, nor do I pretend to understand all of your beliefs. But this much I can tell you, if you want to know about the Baptist Church or any other religion I am not the one to talk to. I do not pretend to know their doctrine because I have not attended their meetings long enough to count myself an expert. May I ask how many of you have read the Book of Mormon? Do you know who Nephi was or what he taught? I am not trying to offend any here. I am just saying if you want to know what we believe reading the Book of Mormon would be a good start.
As for the information provided by Riley I do not agree with. That is not how we see our Savior Jesus. I do not mean to offend you. Read the Book of Mormon or perhaps go to the Churchs website. (www.lds.org) For more accurate information regarding our views of Christ.
Another question I wish to ask, mainly due to my curiosity. What positive things have you heard about Mormons? Are you aware of the beliefs that we share?
And just to close, I appreciate everything you guys have said, your comments have taught me a lot. I do not wish to make enemies, I just want to understand the views of others.
March 4th, 2007 20:49
Michael,
I haven’t seen any hatred in these comments. If you will read the first part of my post, you will see that my attitude is just the opposite.
What part of Riley’s information do you disagree with?
Yes I am familiar with the Book of Mormon. I am also familiar with Doctrines and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. Did you mean to imply that all (or even most) of LDS doctrines can be found in the Book of Mormon?
To pretend that Mormons and Christians believe the same thing is either naive or dishonest. It dishonors both faiths. Mormons could be right, or Christians could be right. Or both could be wrong. But it is not possible that both are correct.
I do not mean to be argumentative. But I think it is important we are all honest and accurate in our statements.
God bless,
Rod
March 4th, 2007 21:06
Steve,
Just a note - I quoted someone else as having said that Mormons make the best neighbours - I’ve never had a Mormon neighbour.
Michael, I’m sorry but from my understanding of the scriptures, the Book of Mormon is another gospel. Joseph Smith’s “vision” told him that all other churches (in the 1820’s) were apostate and he was to join none of them. (The Book of Mormon was published in 1830.) In Smith’s own words he saw himself as having unique revelation:
Read the work of the late Jerald Tanner and his wife Sandra Tanner - former LDS members (Sandra is the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young) who became Christians and spent their lives involved in the question of whether Mormons are Christians. Their work and the work of hundreds of other Christians has shown the divergence between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism.
Michael, I would ask you to help us understand the Mormon position on the created nature of the Godhead, how it differs from orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity - and how good Mormon men themselves will also become Gods. As LDS Prophet Snow said, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.”
As well, perhaps you could explain how Lucifer is the brother of “Elohim” - a rather peculiar understanding from a Christian perspective.
I will not debate that some of the nicest people on the planet may well be Mormons. I will also not debate that what little I know of them as people shows them to be more gracious than most Christians I know. If being a Christian was based on being gracious, then Michael would have it over me, hands down. Unfortunately, its not.
March 4th, 2007 21:09
I am almost hesitant to enter the conversation at this late point, but I feel compelled to do so.
Michael, please be assured that I hate no one.
We will often find that various groups, denominations, cults and religions may use the same vocabulary but have a different dictionary.
Per Michael’s request, I visited the LDS website and read a few of the points of doctrine. Here are some areas with which I feel Mormonism and Christianity are both incompatible and irreconcilable:
1. The Mormons prescribe the manner of salvation as being obedience to the commandments of God. The “depth of their conversion” is dependent upon their degree of obedience and their place in “a kingdom of glory” will be determined by this. This makes Mormonism a religion of works, not of saving faith in the grace of Jesus Christ.
2. The Mormons elevate The Book of Mormon, The Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, to the same level as Scripture.
3. The Mormons deny that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
4. The Mormons consider Lucifer to be a “spiritual son of God”.
Steve, I understand and appreciate your heart for unity within the body of Christ. That is something that I have always admired and respected about you. But I would say to you, things that are different are not the same. With all of the Christian love that I have in my heart for you, I urge you to tread this path very carefully.
March 4th, 2007 21:18
All, this is a very, very good discussion, and I’m sorry I haven’t been here all day to take part in it. We just returned home from a long day fellowshipping with some dear brothers and sisters (of the non-Mormon persuasion!) over in Tennessee and I’m pretty exhausted and heading to bed.
Lord willing, I’ll be able to contribute to this conversation at some point in the morning.
Thank you all for your input here. Larry Who, nice to see you back after such a long time! And same to Riley, although I don’t think it’s been quite as long.
March 4th, 2007 23:17
Everyone,
Just teasing a little bit.
Now don’t all kill me at once.
First of all you need to know I am not the best person to explain my religion’s doctrine and there were many questions out there for me and I will do my best to answer them. But you should know that I won’t have answers for all. Also I have not heard any threats in this group nor have I taken offense from anyone. I am sorry with my last post indicated such. In fact I started blogging here because it seemed to have a bunch of nice guys.
Here are the 13 articles of Faith that my church has put out. It describes our basic beliefs. Now I know not everyone will agree with them. But my hope is that perhaps we can fine some common ground. I do not know your doctrines so you will have to tell me if there is common ground or if I am on another planet. :)(http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1)
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Here are my personal views on Jesus. I believe that I have to do my part in doing good works. I know I can only do so much and in order to be “saved” I need my Savior Jesus. It is only through his grace that I am able to return and live with God. I believe that Jesus wants me to do the best that I can in keeping his commandments. I assume that you guys also agree with this. Through Jesus’s atonemnent we are able to be saved.
Some of the other questions out there about Lucifer and mormon men becoming Gods is a little more complicated. It will take me a long time to explain all of that. And I don’t have time to do all that tonight. Plus I think I will need to think about the best way to explain it. I am not all that good at expressing my thoughts through words. So if you could give me a night to think about it I would be grateful.
I do believe that Jesus come into this world through a virgin birth. I have always been taught that it was through the Holy Ghost that he was conceived. I also believe that Jesus was always perfect and that he never sinned.
Another thing that might help me is if you guys could describe your views of God to me and your relationship to him. I asked this because I do not know your religions and this might help me explain myself better.
And now that I have bored you all with this long stupid essay I bid you goodnight and until tomorrow.
Michael
March 4th, 2007 23:19
Steve,
My last post was blocked. I will have to write it again tomorrow. Sorry guys! Have a great night!
[Edit by Steve: I retrieved them from my spam filter. I’m not sure why it trapped your comments, but I got them out for you, Michael.]
March 5th, 2007 09:15
Michael,
I wish we were having this discussion over a meal where we could hear each other’s voice and see each other’s face. My desire is not to attack you, nor to “convert you” to what I believe - but rather to suggest that there are some immutable understandings of historic Christianity that place Mormonism outside of the “Big Tent of Christianity,” as it were.
Mormonism’s understanding of the Father and the Godhead would be one - as I mentioned in the previous response.
The Mormon understanding of the Virgin Birth, where the Father, in flesh, had a physical relationship with Mary that caused the conception of the Son.
The Mormon understanding of the efficacy of the Atonement - Grace versus works:
Unfortunately, the list where Mormonism diverges from Christianity seems much longer than where we agree. Would that it was otherwise.
March 5th, 2007 10:56
I would agree that mormonism has beliefs that separate it from the revelation of God about Jesus Christ and are regeneration in Him, but if it were simply their focus on works, I would say that many denominations that are considered Christian in the biblical sense do that as well, even unwittingly, through their teachings.
March 5th, 2007 17:09
Well I am back again. Sorry I have been at school all day and I have a quick break to blog a little more.
to start off with, I have come up to the conclusion that is not much more I can add to your knowledge if you have already read books like Doctrines of Salvations and the Teachings of Ezra Taft Bensen. However if you guys have not read A Marvelous Work and A Wonder I would suggest it. It goes through our beliefs about the pre-existence, the apostacy, prophets, and other such doctrine.
I guess my next question is, is there anything at all that you guys like about the Mormon religion? Some people have described us as good neighbors, why is that? I know we have a different views, but do we share any common beliefs, such as honesty, keeping the commandments, and etc?
Sorry I have to go, talk to you later
March 5th, 2007 17:39
Michael, I’ve not read any of those. Many mormons do present quite a challenge to traditional evangelicals because so many appear to live more “christian” lives than those who call themselves Christians. I love the conviction, the morality, and the call to holy living. One of the neatest attorneys I ever worked with was a Mormon. I definitely would tell others that I loved him, his heart, and working with him.
I also love the commitment to missions. There is much to be said about the lifestyle of Mormons. The question generally is whom do we worship and whom do we have a relationship with? Is it the same for a Mormon as it is for a Christian? I’m not saying I know the answer to that question. I have been taught generally that it isn’t the same. I have never studied the differences. When I have read the above cited differences (which I have read before) I have to agree that there are definite differences in our understandings of God. That to me suggests that we have different gods, which, by definition separates us.
March 5th, 2007 22:45
I’m sorry I have not been able to respond until now. I ended up getting tangled up in a discussion on another blog today in the few opportunities I had to get to a computer.
First of all, I want to thank all of your for your input in this discussion. The discussion here at my blog always seems to stay rather civil, and I appreciate that!!
I also want to thank those of you who have expressed your loving concern and encouraged me to rethink my thoughts on this. I want you to know that I don’t take those concerns lightly.
I realize the title of this post is rather provocative, and I admit to having chosen this title as a bit of a joke and for the shock value. I’m not really Mormon, obviously, but thought that it was a cute way to introduce what my friend said to me.
I respect the concerns that have been raised here, and the comments that have been made regarding “official” teachings of the LDS. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out official teachings and expressing disagreement with them.
This continues, however, to point out the problem with judging entire groups of people. I continue to maintain that I think this is a problem in evangelical Christianity. Our propensity to take a label and extrapolate all kinds of judgments from that is not always wise.
Bill, I would still like to get your response to the questions I asked in my first reply to you. Specifically, I would like to know how you would advise a Mormon who, in your opinion, then gets “truly” saved.
I appreciate all of you contributing to this. And I especially want to thank Michael for braving this and engaging with us on it. Michael found me through a blog search regarding Mormons, and he and I do not know each other offline at all.
You are welcome any time here, Michael.
I will try to post again soon, but hopefully won’t rock the boat too much in the next post. Although I must confess, the things that are on my mind right now are not the safest topics if I’m looking for agreement from my readers!
Blessings on all of you.
steve
March 6th, 2007 01:21
Steve,
I don’t buy your “truly” saved language and don’t see this as a discussion of soteriology. Perhaps you could engage the significant differences that exist between what Mormons believe and what is expressed in the Nicene Creed. That might be a good and simple place to start.
Forgive me, Steve, it’s late, I’m tired but it seems to me that you want to decide who is a Christian based on how you feel. And your two options response to Rod and I is a tautology. A third possible option would be that Michael is deceived. A fourth possible option would be that Michael has not done the research and is not aware of where Mormonism and historic Christianity diverge. A fifth option is you have an incredible gift of encouragement but that discernment is far from your strong suit. A sixth option…
I need to get some sleep. Good night (or morning, as the case may be).
March 6th, 2007 02:24
Steve,
I’m a first time poster here today. I’ve been reading over your blog for some time now and am on my own trek regarding house/simple church. I’m also reevaluating some of the long held doctrines and positions of the faith. I’m finding that I’m not necessarily as rigid as I once was. Strange, I’ve always enjoyed “doctrine.”
I’ve noticed there seems to be some very good discussion, many viewpoints, all shared with incredible grace. I also like the fact that people seem to be willing to have provocative discussions such as this one. Wow! I nearly jumped in earlier with comments not unlike many of those already posted regarding the “official” teaching of the Mormon church.
Instead I decided to hold back and see what else was said. I think I understand the point you’re trying to make; though the “institution” may hold specifics that are not “doctrinally correct”, individuals may be a part of that institution but may not hold those questionable positions (right?).
Just as some of us may hold positions which are not in line with our own denominations.
Hmmm. Interesting.
In Christ,
-marty
March 6th, 2007 07:17
marty, glad to have you with us. You pretty much got exactly what I was trying to say.
A good example that doesn’t have to do with Mormons is the debate between Calvinism and non-Calvinism. A non-Calvinist may assume a lot of things about a Calvinist in a debate, and may make wrong judgments based on the Calvinist label. Likewise a Calvinist may make assumptions about a non-Calvinist and end up with wrong conclusions as well.
It seems like we end up starting with a “guilty until proven innocent” mentality, and I am arguing for the opposite.
Thanks for commenting. Feel free to jump in any time!
March 6th, 2007 07:48
Steve -
I have really enjoyed reading these comments and I love to read a blog where people act like they should
I think I see the big picture of what you are saying here. I am a disciple of Jesus, but the church that I attend is Baptist (I say that with the proverbial cough and mouth cover so that you can’t hear what I am saying
LOL), but PLEASE do not judge me based on that … I certainly don’t believe most of what most Baptists believe. That, of course, is not an indictment of Baptists, just a statement that because I attend a Baptist church you mustn’t make assumptions about me. That is why I prefer to not even say that I am a Christian, or a Baptist for that matter, because in people’s minds that conjures up all kinds of thoughts, good, bad, ugly … I am a believer, I am a disciple and that’s that.
Blessings!
~Heather
March 6th, 2007 08:49
Steve, thanks very much for exposing that Christians are guilty of spiritual (quite similar to racial) profiling! Why not take every encounter with another person as our our next opportunity to love as Christ does–accepting exactly where the person is or is not without condemnation or judgment–and trust God to lead from there?
Why are we “afraid of the devil” in another person’s darkness (imagined or authentic)? Are we overcomers or not? Is there power in the Truth in Love or not?
March 6th, 2007 08:57
Heather, thanks for your comments. I certainly don’t judge anyone on the Baptist label!
You raise an interesting point about even the term “Christian”. I have seen some discussion on other blogs in the past year about this. I like the term “Christ follower” myself, but don’t eschew the term “Christian” like some have suggested in other conversations that we should do.
ded, “spiritual profiling” was an excellent term to use!! Wow. I never thought of it in those terms before. That just might end up being the title of a post here. Have I mentioned that you should have your own blog?
hehe
March 6th, 2007 09:08
Hmmmm, this is an interesting course of discussion we are having here.
While we should never be too quick to judge someone’s beliefs, the other side of that coin is, when a person openly embraces a label that has an “official” statement of faith, are they not at least tacitly endorsing that doctrine?
Like Heather, I am a Baptist. Do I like everything that Baptists do? Of course not. But by publicly identifying myself as a Baptist, I realize that I must take the good public perceptions with the bad.
I do not mean this in the wrong spirit, but if someone is going to adopt a denominational/theological label and then have a list of disclaimers that is longer than their group’s statement of faith, then perhaps they should find a different group with which to identify.
March 6th, 2007 09:30
Gordon,
You said, “I do not mean this in the wrong spirit, but if someone is going to adopt a denominational/theological label and then have a list of disclaimers that is longer than their group’s statement of faith, then perhaps they should find a different group with which to identify.”
I do have to agree with you on this! I think you’re right …
~Heather
March 6th, 2007 09:52
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER!!!
I already made this point above, and if you read the exchanges carefully, this should have been obvious, but this conversation has been grossly misrepresented on another blog now, and so I want to set the record completely straight.
Michael is not the person to whom I referred in my post. I do not know Michael at all, and he found this blog through doing a Google blog search for the term “mormom”. I have not commented one way or the other on Michael’s salvation.
Additionally, since this seems to have been misunderstood, too, this post does NOT say that all Mormons are Christians, or that Christianity and Mormonism are the same thing.
It saddens me that this has been so misunderstood. I probably could have written this post better, but I thought that the statements I made in the comments would have cleared things up even more.
March 6th, 2007 09:57
Steve,
Just to clarify things here… did you meet Michael in Reno? Thanks,
-Alan
March 6th, 2007 10:07
Alan, too bad Heather and I (and maybe Gordon) are about the only ones here who have any clue what you’re talking about!!
I’m sure this will stir things up quite a bit more.
For the record, I’ve never been to Reno! LOL
March 6th, 2007 10:22
A good friend of mine offered some advice to me recently. This is advice that another brother had offered him. The advice seems wise to me.
We should be very careful about how we speak with those who we believe may be part of a cult. It could be that they belong to Christ. And, our words, especially condemning words, may hamper what God is doing in their life.
I would add, we should also be careful about how we speak with those who are part of an “orthodox” group. Membership does not equal disciple of Christ.
-Alan
March 6th, 2007 10:40
Alan -
That’s a good word!!!!! Thanks for sharing that!
~Heather
March 6th, 2007 10:43
Steve,
I hear what your trying to communicate here.
Everyone-
He’s talking about salvation as an individual relationship as opposed to a denominational or religious affiliation and the assumptions that we can jump to by grouping people rather than seeing them as individuals.
This is not an endorsement for Mormonism or a judgement regarding the authenticity or legitimacy of this man’s salvation…Is that the 10th time that’s been stated?
In the original post he wrote, “We can be so quick to write off entire groups of people because of what we think they believe. But I found in conversation last night that there are an awful lot of points of agreement.”…Some of the responses this has drawn prove that point to be a valid one.
The point I’m trying to make here is that if I were to state the fact that I’m a Christian and a Southern Baptist Associate Pastor most orthodox Christians would assume that I’m saved and doctrinally “solid”. But you don’t know that…that’s an assumption. That works both ways. Anytime we assume that someone is saved or judge that someone is not saved we are crossing a boundary that isn’t ours to cross. You don’t see a man’s heart as Christ does and cannot judge the authenticity of his salvation by his actions, his words or his religious affiliation. If I had more time (and if I thought it were appropriate, which I do not) I could give you many examples of people whom, by the standards set forth by some, would be considered saved. You might be surprised at the fruit that some “orthodox Christians” bear that would indicate this not to be the case. But again, I don’t make that judgement.
Alan-
EXCELLENT point!
Be blessed…
Brandon
March 6th, 2007 10:43
Bill, I recovered your comment from the spam filter. I was not aware that it had sent it there until you mentioned it on Dan’s blog. I’m sorry that happened, because that probably added more frustration to what you’re feeling.
You wrote: I don’t buy your “truly” saved language and don’t see this as a discussion of soteriology.
I’m honestly not at all sure what you mean by not “buy[ing]” my language. I sense that somehow I have truly irritated you here, and I wish that were not the case. Like in your comment to Michael, I wish we could have this conversation over a cup of coffee or something.
But, if you care to elaborate, why do you not “buy” what I have said? I was simply trying to draw a distinction between someone saying they are saved, and you agreeing with that statement. Perhaps “truly” wasn’t the best choice of words, but I was trying to move to a more important question that you still decided not to answer. That saddens me.
As for this not being “a discussion of soteriology”, I don’t understand how it could be anything but that. The bottom line is what does a person need to believe or demonstrate in order for you or anyone else to consider them saved. That’s all about soteriology, in my opinion.
You expressed on Dan’s blog that you wish to withdraw from the conversation, and I will respect that. But if you desire to discuss this further, I really do welcome your input.
My decision to consider my friend (not Michael, mind you) as my brother in Christ had nothing to do with my feelings, as you have stated here. I’m not even sure how you’ve gotten that from what I’ve written.
It has everything to do with confession of faith and evidence of fruit.
Is that in conflict with his membership in the LDS church? Perhaps. But that’s why I was wanting to get your thoughts on what you would say to someone in the LDS church that you believed was genuinely saved.
Perhaps what I suggested in response to you and Rod was a tautology, although it was by no means intentionally so. I can see the possibility of someone being deceived, but what I was trying to get across was that there was either a problem on his end (deceptiveness or being deceived or lying or whatever) or on my end (lack of discernment).
It seems to be the position of several here (I guess yourself) that it is the latter: I lack discernment.
With regard to the other suggestions you have made for my topic (i.e., comparing the basic tenets of the Mormon church with Nicea), I respectfully believe this is the wrong place to start, and I have made that point many times on this blog.
If anything, it would be fair to compare it to revealed Scripture, but I see Nicea as an interpretation of Scripture, and not Scripture itself. It remains a growing frustration of mine that Nicea is continued to be held as a “litmus test” for whether or not we give people the time of day as brothers and sisters.
I respect that you disagree, but regret that we were unable to discuss that openly in this thread without simply reasserting our presuppositions.
You are welcome here anytime, Bill. And I thank you for the time you have put into this discussion. I hope to see you around again soon, my brother.
March 6th, 2007 10:48
Brandon, all I have the energy right now to say is “thank you”. I appreciate your heart and your response.
Alan, that is a very good point. Thank you for your comment as well. I was hoping you’d weigh in at some point here.
March 6th, 2007 14:41
Gordon,
I couldn’t agree with you more. If one ascribes to a formally developed belief such as religious practice, should we not expect the person to know, support and follow the tenets of that belief?
Which, Michael, is why those of us associated with “traditional” Chritianity look on Mormon beliefs as not being “Christian.” There are tenets of the Mormon belief system at odds with tenets of accepted Christian faith. By accepted I mean, a clear core of beliefs that have lasted through the centuries and are always given credence as the “Truth” no matter what version of Christianity one observes. That does not imply that all Christians believe the same about every scripture, which is more than readily evident. I simply intend to say the meaning of Jesus as communicated in Mormon literature strikes at the heart of and dismantles the meaning we Christian ascribe to Him, even though the results of the two beliefs can appear the same–living a Holy life.
So discussions like this serve a purpose. How is it we point to the same historical figure, respect something similar like a Holy life, and it not be the same?
Christians, I would think, answer that question in much deeper terms than exegesis.
March 6th, 2007 16:47
Steve,
I think this discussion got a little a field for several reasons.
One was that your original post was more provocative than you intended. In your eagerness to make your point forcefully, you inadvertently (I think) said more than you meant to say.
A second factor was that you were not available to participate in the conversation right at the beginning.
A third is that Michael saw this as an opening to promote his faith and hijacked your post for his purposes.
If we could go back and start with my initial comment, this discussion might prove profitable. There are many positive aspects to your friendship with your neighbor. I agree that no one should be written off even if they belong to a group that is outside orthodox Christianity.
But the last two paragraphs of your post implied that following the beliefs of Mormonism is not inconsistent with being a Christian. You said that you were not claiming that all Mormons are “saved.” But you said that you sincerely believed that your friend was a “brother in Christ.”
As others have pointed out, the official teachings of Mormonism are not consistent with Christianity.
You also mentioned that your friend made a “confession of faith.” It is very important to understand the context here. A Mormon can use the very same words that you would use to “make a confession of faith” and mean something very different than what you mean.
I don’t know the situation with your friend. But I think it is obvious that Michael was being disingenuous in his comments here (if not outright dishonest).
It is quite possible that your friend believes in the Jesus of the New Testament. But it is also quite possible that he believes in the Jesus of Joseph Smith (not even close to the same person).
But here’s a more troubling possibility. It is possible that your friend believes in the Jesus of Joseph Smith and would have been open to finding out about the Jesus of the New Testament. However, if that is the case, your eagerness to embrace him as a “brother in Christ” may have prevented him from investigating the difference.
I don’t mean to be harsh here. I think I know your heart. But this is not a simple case of openness and acceptance.
I’m more than willing to continue this conversation if you want.
God Bless,
Rod
March 6th, 2007 16:58
Well, just to confirm Steve’s comment I have not met him before. I am a Mormon and I will give you guys two guesses where I live.
Nope it is not Utah, it is only Idaho. You guys can’t tell me you are not surprised. 
Nope I was just looking around on blogs seeing what people thought about my particular faith. As you can tell there are some strong feelings.
I appreciate all of your information. It has given me a few things to study. It is always interesting to understand others views.
If you ever make your way up to Idaho perhaps we can have lunch. I don’t think the coffee will work, because as you know I don’t drink coffee. But I can make a mean cup of hot chocolate!:)
Michael
March 6th, 2007 20:54
Michael, let me say that I appreciate your willingness to engage in this conversation. I sincerely hope that my comments have come across only as pointing out the differences in our beliefs and not as a personal attack.
March 28th, 2007 01:13
There is only ONE type of Christian-The Bible believing and following kind.