I’d love you to do some iron sharpening for me on my blog regarding what you don’t agree with. I’m looking forward to where this discussion might go - and really appreciate what Ed Brenegar (from your neck of the woods) had to say.

BTW - I am supremely jealous of where you live. I think it’s some of the most beautiful country in the world. I once knew an Irishman with the last name of Mearns who lived in Boone - and had the pleasure of visiting there many, many years ago.

I do not know R. Mearns personally, but several of my readers do. I’m quite familiar with his name and work in this area. He still exercises some oversight over one of the congregations here, to my knowledge.

Yes, that is a good article. I noticed it earlier through Michael Spencer… internet monk. I thought seriously about linking to it from my blog, so I’m glad that you did.

I’m dealing with many of the same issues on my blog, but I’m trying to deal with them from a positive approach. Instead of asking “what is the church not”, I’m trying to ask “what is the church”. I think both approaches are necessary.

-Alan

But that’s why I think that these discussions need both the Alan Knox’s and the Bill Kinnon’s of the body of Christ. Like you said, both approaches are necessary.

Bill, I’ve tried to distance myself from the same. It too quickly leads to the wrong results (passivity on the part of the body and abuse on the part of the authoritarian leaders).

I do look forward to getting to know where you’re at better in your journey and learning from what you’ve already experienced. Either I just didn’t notice your name before, or it’s suddenly started showing up on other blogs I read (Subversive Influence has mentioned you several times recently) just since you first commented here.

As I was reading this post I began to think about how and when I “came across” your blog. I write that in quotations as I do not believe it was happenstance. And if I hadn’t “happened” upon your blog, I also would not have “happened” upon Alan’s blog (and some others that I have found helpful). I appreciate all of you that are on a similar journey sharing your thoughts and insights … I’m not sure you realize just how helpful and edifying they are!

This journey is new, it’s hard, but it’s good. I liken it to starting out on a trip, not knowing where you are going, not being able to see the road ahead, but knowing that you’ll be safe and that it will be the ride of your life!

Blessings!

~Heather

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but Alan when you say you are trying to approach things from a positive way, what does that mean exactly?

I read Jesus’ words to the Pharisees and I cringe. He called it like it he saw it. Imagine how the people must have felt hearing a rabbi say the things he said to the religious leaders. I mean he called them sons of the grave(hell, but that is kinda a bad translation). He said they stopped people from entering the kingdom of heaven. I’m not sure how polite or positive that kind of speech was.

And what was the end result? The religious leaders had him killed. Fear of the loss of power. But that backfired and look how many people experienced freedom like never before. That whole “unless a grain of wheat falls” thing.

So I’m just wondering if our trying to be polite, our not calling it like it is, our ‘positive approach’ is a more a matter of trying to be nice and not hurt feelings and is actually causing more harm than good. But really there are people who need to be told about the truth. Maybe even more than that, there are people who need to see the truth in action…in our actions. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 2, talks about not speaking with lofty words but with demonstrations of the Holy Spirit. All to have them trust in God rather than human wisdom.

Paul talks about unity in his letter to the Ephesians, but he also talks about defending the truth to the Phillipians. He talks about how to deal with correction in the church with the final step being the expusion of the erring person. So what happens when you can’t oust the erring person because they have too much clout and power? Do they start to twist the truth to fit their needs? And what happens to regular people? I think a brief look at Christian history shows it’s pretty obvious.

Maybe we get crucified for bringing freedom and truth to those who are being misguided. I mean the religious leaders of the past liked to kill Christians for proclaiming the truth. Be it a good flogging, stoning, or feeding some hungry lions.

But why? Because in all honesty, the truth we should be offering or alluded to in the post Bill put up takes power away from those who have it and gives it to the average person. Like John Mayer sings, “Power is made by power being taken.”

I’m just wondering.

I have a tendancy to post in a smarmy or slightly sarcastic way, but it is more for effect and a laugh than anything, so please don’t take offense. I think a lot of it comes from feeling overwhelmed by the task ahead of us. Or by posting about Jesus, Paul, and John Mayer in the same comment.

Later!

I hear you, brother, and have wrestled with (and still do) some of the very same questions.

I don’t have answers, but I do appreciate you raising the questions. Maybe others from both sides of the coin would like to add their thoughts to what you’ve written.

Thanks for jumping in. (Wasn’t it you who just recently said he doesn’t like participating in the debates?! hehe)

I did not sense any disrespect from your comment. I agree with everything that you said.

When I read Bill’s post, I agreed. In fact, I believe he points out major problems in the institutional church - real problems, problems that need to be addressed. There are things wrong with the church today.

My desire is to approach this from a different angle. (Note, when I say “my desire”, I am not saying that any other approach is wrong. This is the direction that God has brought me, so this is the direction that I’m coming from.) Once everything “wrong” with the institutional church has been removed, what then? Is everything fine then? I don’t think so. I think there are many aspects of the church that have been lost or forgotten. I am attempting to study Scripture in order to determine what the church should be, how the church should meet, what the church should do, instead of from the direction of what is wrong with the church.

Now, I do not believe for a moment that my approach is altruistic, nor do I believe that this is an either/or issue. Many times I do discuss things that are wrong with the church today. However, that’s not my focus.

As I said earlier, both approaches are necessary. Jesus not only told the Pharisees to stop holding to the traditions of men (what not to do), he also told them to hold to the commands of God instead (what to do). When need to understand the church from both approaches as well.

-Alan

In those many, many years ago visits, did you visit the fellowship that Irishman Mearns was helping? If so and it was before 1998, we may have met. I was in that fellowship then, is the reason I ask. BTW, he is usually in town on sunday evenings. I’ll tell him you said, “Hello,” if I may?

Steve, I mail that 75 page project tomorrow and can rejoin the land of the living. I will be unattached from my dungeon computer.

I don’t remember when it was but I think it may have been in 97 or 98. We stayed with the Albertson’s I believe, if that makes sense. We had our three kids with us who were 10, 8 and 6 then.

Mike,

I’d agree with Alan. I don’t see it as an either/or but rather as a both/and. The prophetic and the encouraging voice together, if you will.

TPFKATC is only half the story. The other half is this great missional adventure we’ve been called to go forth into. We need to ask the “how” of each other, but most especially of the Lord - and be prepared to not have all the answers - or to receive just enough grace to take the next step forward.

Feel free to say hello to him for me. And see if he remembers…

ded, I’m proud of you, my brother!! We hope to be able to celebrate with you if you’re available. Christy left you a voicemail, I believe about going to “Empty Bowls” together and then coming back here to celebrate the completion of your task! Now we’ll pray for a passing mark on each of the sections so you can be done completely

everyone else, sorry for using my blog to convey personal messages to ded, but….he started it! hehe Besides, it is my blog!!

I am fairly spent from all the finishing work that has taken hours this week.

I know we are not going to the Empty Bowl fund-raiser, but maybe over to your house later.

I’ll call you later.

Personally, I’m still in the IC, at least physically. It’s a big move to make and I know my family is not quite (yet) at the same point of discovery that I am. Pray for us if you will.

A few nights ago my wife called me up from the shop to listen to “this guy.” His name is Robert Jeffress. He was on the radio speaking about what is wrong with “home church.” I was amazed at the things he said. His arguments were totally false. He set up one of the most incredible “strawman” I have ever heard and of course he proceeded to knock it flat; at least those who haven’t researched it would think so. I found myself so frustrated I told my wife, he said this and that, all not true at all. Scripture out of context, misquotes from Barna, etc.

I was amazed that a representative of the gospel could be so blatantly false. It was saddening. I think this might be why I had the mixed feelings when I first read Bills post I don’t like to hear the attacks from either side. Perhaps it’s my optimism that makes me think we don’t have to be so bold, perhaps I’m wrong..
May our wonderful Lord bless you all,
-marty

I don’t think we have met, though I hope it happens someday! I don’t know the Albertsons, which would put you with Robert Mearns after I was not around…though I never left Boone.

Really enjoyed your “People Formerly…” post. Thanks. I printed it as hard copy to have for a reference with people sitting around the living room.

Marty,
People generally and men in particular, unfortunately especially in Christian groups, will support what they believe in passionately and with false assumptions. What is the line between false assumptions and being a wolf? It would have to be knowing you were spreading false information and doing so anyway as a means of achieving a personal agenda. When someone simply believes that which is false, but they do so with full integrity and based on their love of God (and we are all in that place at some point to some degree), we must trust the Holy Spirit to complete His work and the full renewal of our thinking. It will happen for all who honestly seek Him.

I have done the passionate thing…and am still often there, but have purposed to understand my Father as much as possible free from my own blurred vision. Interestingly, in that quest, I have found the deepest commitment to truth I have known and the least confidence in my own passion.

When someone simply believes that which is false, but they do so with full integrity and based on their love of God (and we are all in that place at some point to some degree), we must trust the Holy Spirit to complete His work and the full renewal of our thinking. It will happen for all who honestly seek Him.

I want to add a very hearty amen to this!!

But luckily, grace has a link to your blog. Will be stopping by more.

The article was outstanding. I found it through iMonk as well.

Brad shut his blog down a while ago…I think it was back in the fall sometime, if I remember correctly. I sent him an email, but never got a response. I still think of him and pray for him often.

As for TeamPyro, surely you don’t want me to come back there and participate in “discussion”. I’ve finally regained my sanity!!!

Thanks for finding me. I hope to see you here again sometime in the future.

ded (any relation to e.e. cummings?) sent me the link to Bill’s site and the TPFKATC post.

I found myself gaining new vocabulary words that will allow me to better express what I have been feeling the past few years.

From there I hit the DashHouse and was further convinced that I was really on to something.

Why now—why me! I don’t feel ready for what is about to take place but am excited that the process is continuing to evolve.

“…and but for the sky there are no fences facing”. Bob Dylan

I’m glad you’re on this journey, too. From that time you talked to me at Higher Grounds about some of your questions, I have had you in my heart and prayers. I know the journey is not always fun or easy, but based on what I’ve been reading on your blog, I think you’re thinking through a lot of good stuff.

Keep walking forward with Christ. I don’t think you can be disappointed when you’re following the Spirit.

Thanks again for making the point.

In Christ,
-marty

Sorry I haven’t commented in a while — I have been very busy… but I still lurk and read…

As always, I feel somewhat like a fish out of water (or at least in the shallow end, with gills exposed), being a pastor in an IC-type environment.

However, I agree with much, if not most of what Bill says. I am as weary as TPFKATC (I love the acronym), with all of the ‘leadership’ that is coming out of the church.

I especially enjoyed the part where he said — “We have not forsaken the gathering of the Saints, we simply don’t do it there” (a paraphrase).. One of the things that I love about our church is that we spend at a minimum, three or four nights a week gathered together SOMEWHERE — at a home, at the Pagan Shrine of Starbuck’s (j/k), or sometimes just on a motorcycle ride.

I also like the freedom of not getting paid to be the pastor, that way I can be ‘one of the folks’ and not worry about all of the ’stuff’ that is so much a part of ‘church’ in today’s society. I don’t say that proudly, we simply cannot afford to pay a pastor; but there are some unique benefits, such as — I know what it is like to have a bad day at work, and I am not bound by a financial leash to create and/or sustain an ORGANIZATION, but rather can allow the church to be what it always has been, a living, breathing community.

Sorry to run on, but I would also like to say that I find it appalling that people/pastors/organizations build edifices to THEIR success, while the community around them may be drowning in poverty, drug-abuse, or unemployment. That is unconscionable to me!

Sorry for the length, and maybe even a bit off topic… Just elicited that from me…

I’m not totally surprised that so much of what Bill wrote actually resonated with you. I’ve always said that you’re not the typical IC pastor!

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, though. I appreciate the input from you.

Philip, if you’re referring to Bill’s thoughts and blog, I agree with you. Thanks for dropping by.

I won’t necessarily speak for Bill, but I can tell you for myself that “justified anger” (although I’m not sure I would define my feelings on this issue as anger) is not a place I have any intention of staying.

Bill has been linking to other articles that are taking his polemic to the next step. There is much positive discussion to be had regarding abuses and misuses within the body of Christ.

I don’t think the tune will miss the mark, but I’m not sure that any of us really know what this will all look like 5, 10, 15 years down the road. Some of us don’t even know what it will look like next week!!

Thanks for contributing.