ecently, I linked to a thought-provoking post by Bill Kinnon called “The People Formerly Known as the Congregation“. Understandably, there have been some mixed reactions to this post, and it has sparked something of a small phenomenon around parts of the blogosphere. There have been other “Formerly Known” posts written, all with varying degrees of controversial thoughts.
I haven’t been mentioning them here or linking to them, mostly because it didn’t seem to fit the flow of this blog to continue discussing it. This blog has a very eclectic audience, and I have been making a concentrated effort this calendar year to address a wider variety of topics.
However, today I read a “Formerly Known” post that literally stopped me in my tracks. In fact, I read it while sitting at a computer in a computer lab at the University, and was honestly afraid I would break down crying right there in front of the students. It affected me that much.
Please be aware that the post I am about to link to may not strike you the same way. It may offend some. There’s a great preamble to the post that addresses this already, so I won’t make a big deal out of it.
But I would strongly encourage each of you to go read this post. We can discuss it here, or you can discuss it over there. Either way, I would love to get some thoughts on it from my readers.
Why did it move me so much? Well, I’ll let you read it first, and then I’ll share my thoughts either in the comments here or in a later post.
Please go read “Formerly Known” by Brother Maynard (not his real name) at Subversive Influence.
Until next time,
steve 
Gordon,
I was thinking of the gentleman giving a “word” to the coach — while his word was largely the words of Scripture, there was a prophetic element, and he delivered it as a message from God. I don’t remember his exact words, but he said something along the lines of, “God wants to say this to you”. How does that fit with what you have argued here in this thread?
And of course, the overall story line of a man who is faced with financial, familial, vocational needs, cries out to God, and ends up getting a brand new truck, a raise, a winning football team, and a miracle baby. Sounded pretty “word of faith” to me. I know that’s a theology that you’re not real crazy about, right?
I, personally, didn’t have any issues with the movie. But it made me think back to your endorsement of it, and it just struck me as surprising.
Steve, must I agree with every part of something before I can recommend it? Think back to the many endorsements I have given to this blog (despite our handful of differences) and I think you might find it in your heart to cut me a little slack here.
As far as the scripture that the man quoted to the coach in the movie, let me refer you to a comment I made to ded earlier in this thread:
You are correct that we speak on behalf of God regularly. Any time we teach, preach, witness or in any other way share the truth of God’s Word, we are speaking on His behalf. I would even go so far as to say that the Spirit may move us to say certain things to someone as a means of encouragement, correction, etc.
I thought we had discussed this before. I am surprised that it surprised you.
Gordon, I think you misunderstood the tone of my question and what it was that surprised me.
I wasn’t meaning to imply that you had to agree with everything before endorsing it. It just seemed to me that the overall message was much more “charismatic” in tone.
It’s ok, though. I was just curious. Not trying to pick a fight with you.
Steve, to be perfectly honest, I wasn’t all that hot about the fact that everything seemed to fall in place for the coach. My review of the movie was of its overall quality and message. For an indy movie produced by a church, I thought it was of better than average quality. (As opposed to a certain series that came out in the ’70s that although they were dispensational in nature were of horrible quality–you know the ones I mean.)
I didn’t take it as you trying to pick a fight.
Gordon, yes, I know which movies you’re talking about
FtG was definitely “better than average quality”, as you said. Personally, I enjoyed the movie very much. Some of the acting was a bit under par, but for the most part, I was able to get past that and into the story.
I understand your point about how “everything seemed to fall in place for the coach.” I had seen other reviews that took issue with that.
The thing that I did like about that, though, was that the coach was truly humbled by what he saw God doing, and he was very careful to give God the glory. That, to me, set it apart from a typical “health/wealth” teaching, which often seems to come through with a “Well, of course God did this because I spoke it in faith.”
Subtle, maybe, but different, in my opinion.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on that.
Gordon – thanks. I’m glad I understood you correctly since we can set it aside now; I don’t see that there was any personal attack, it just felt like we got off onto a side issue :^) The message is the real thing, the format a distraction.
Cheers,
Gordon,
Some of my generalities weren’t necessarily directed at you, sorry if it read that way. I will say that I have to do a little more research on the whole cessationist idea. Do you recommend any books taking that stance?
ded,
I just might have to stop by someday.
Mike,
Come prepared to hike, if you like such. Some of the best things to see around here cannot be arrived at by car! Hound Ears Rocks and Raven’s Ridge are relatively short treks, but well worth it.
Mike,
There’s a “Four Views†book on this that I think is pretty good. Gordon may have some better suggestions.
Brother Maynard,
Though you didn’t mention me specifically, I believe I owe you an apology. My remarks were overly harsh. I suppose (and this is not an excuse) that you were to me a sort of third person and I did not take into account that you are a part of this community. I hope you’ll forgive me.
Mike, I cannot recall the title at the moment, but John MacArthur’s book on the subject is good.
Another good one is “Spirit Works” by Jerry Vines.
Gordon, are you referring to “Charismatic Chaos”?
Steve, that title doesn’t ring a bell. It has been a few years since I read it and I am pretty sure it is at my office at the church. When I have a chance to look it up I will let you know.
Thanks guys. I’ll look those up. Steve, any suggestions of your own?
ded,
ARGH! You’re killing me, I’m stuck in a hotel room in NJ and its raining out. Though the resturant here did make a pretty tasty reuben. I love hiking, though here in WV we have our fair share of places to wander around in as well.
Mike, if you’re asking for suggestions for good resources on cessationism, unfortunately I’m not the guy to answer that. I abandoned cessationism about seven or eight years ago, after having been schooled in it and having held to it for my whole life (about 30 years) prior.
If Gordon can remember the title of the book he’s wanting to recommend, that would be your place to start, probably.
Now, if you want books in support of continuationism, I would recommend a few written by two of my favorite authors: Luke and Paul
hehe
LOL, Steve, I almost said that myself but I didn’t want to seem antagonistic.
Gordon – ha
beat you to the punch 
Mike,
Reubens, eh? My favorite sandwich! Except I have to have brown mustard instead of that TI dressing.
WV! Wonderful. Maybe Steve and I should drive to see you?!!
How ’bout it, Steve?
ded, I actually would enjoy that very much. Both the road trip with you and being able to fellowship with a brother in that fashion.
I think Mike’s about 4 hours or so from us, although I can’t be positive. Mike, what do you know about your relative location to Boone?
If y’all are serious, I’m definitely up for it.
Steve,
I figured you for a continuationist, no worries there! No, I’m just curious how those ‘other’ people think.
Just kidding Gordon. All in good fun, all in good fun, mate. It seems to me a pretty sticky wicket however, as a good bit of what is the charismatic movement seems based on the idea of continuationism. The cessationists would no doubt take issue with a lot of what is considered doctirne in these churches.
Now I don’t see how cessationists can believe what they do, hence I am going to study it in depth, but I’m not a big proponent of speaking in tongues, or at least the way it handled in many churches today, so maybe a I can see that side. It could be the fact that I was told ‘start’ the process by saying the names of various foreign auto makers names quickly. And no, it never did happen.
Not trying to start a tangent here, but wow what an issue.
On a lighter note,
Boone is like 5 1/2 hours away from Fairmont. I’m up for a visit either way, but it’ll have to wait until after travel season.
The four views book I mentioned is a good start because it has each position presented by someone who holds that position followed by discussion from the other contributers. It’s called “Are Miraculous Gifts for Today” and it’s edited by Wayne Grudem. In case you’re curious, I would probably end up in the open but cautious camp.
I read the article and most of the posts, and the discussion surrounding our respresentation of God’s voice reminded me of 1 Peter 4.11 If any man speaks he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. This is both a very high standard and also a mystery. But to the degree we exemplify this I think that the varying ideas, imaginations and POV simply reflect the manifold character of GOd’s voice like ‘many rushing waters’. I did not have strong reaction one way or the other to the link- rather I felt it reflected on you, Steve and your heart for the church to be thriving in His presence.