Comments on: Thoughts on Unity and John 17, Part 1 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/ Random discussions about various topics, with an emphasis on simple church and other out-of-the-box thoughts. Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:22:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: Sarah Rooney http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10600 Sarah Rooney Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:03:15 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10600 A good summary... and convicting as well. A good summary… and convicting as well.

]]> By: Lew A http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10607 Lew A Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:17:17 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10607 Steve, Great job. I agree with the conclusion that you have drawn from this passage. The implications are of course very dangerous. Of course, if I follow these implications, the next important questions is, "What do I do with these people who do not agree with my understanding of the Genesis account?" I won't answer that here... but I think it is very important for us to think about. Great post. Lew <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/the_pursuit/" rel="nofollow">The Pursuit Online Store</a> Steve,

Great job. I agree with the conclusion that you have drawn from this passage. The implications are of course very dangerous. Of course, if I follow these implications, the next important questions is, “What do I do with these people who do not agree with my understanding of the Genesis account?”

I won’t answer that here… but I think it is very important for us to think about.

Great post.

Lew

The Pursuit Online Store

]]> By: Steve Sensenig http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10625 Steve Sensenig Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:57:41 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10625 <strong>Sarah</strong>, thanks. I hope it wasn't too convicting ;) <strong>Lew</strong>, that's a great question. I hope to deal with that in my second part coming up. Sarah, thanks. I hope it wasn’t too convicting ;)

Lew, that’s a great question. I hope to deal with that in my second part coming up.

]]> By: Bryan Riley http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10631 Bryan Riley Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:30:54 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10631 I think you are dead on that it isn't a "you go your way; I'll go mine" thing. But I have a question... I see the unity as being a unity in Jesus. It is a unity that develops when we all fix our eyes on Jesus, knowing Him (as a person and not as a theological fact), and unite around Who He Is. So, in that it is unanimity of a sort, but it doesn't mean that we all agree on every aspect. So, I'm not sure that this unity, my thoughts, fit into any of your four categories. Do they? Did I try to comment too briefly to tell? I think you are dead on that it isn’t a “you go your way; I’ll go mine” thing. But I have a question… I see the unity as being a unity in Jesus. It is a unity that develops when we all fix our eyes on Jesus, knowing Him (as a person and not as a theological fact), and unite around Who He Is. So, in that it is unanimity of a sort, but it doesn’t mean that we all agree on every aspect. So, I’m not sure that this unity, my thoughts, fit into any of your four categories. Do they? Did I try to comment too briefly to tell?

]]> By: Bryan Riley http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10632 Bryan Riley Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:32:20 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10632 Lew, in answer to your question, I think you come to the point where "your" answer to the Genesis account and other things aren't important. What's important is Jesus and introducing people to HIm.. Lew, in answer to your question, I think you come to the point where “your” answer to the Genesis account and other things aren’t important. What’s important is Jesus and introducing people to HIm..

]]> By: ded http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10638 ded Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:36:17 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10638 ummmm...Jesus said, "When you pray, pray like this, '<i>OUR</i> Father...'" What does that suggest about our unity? ummmm…Jesus said, “When you pray, pray like this, ‘OUR Father…’” What does that suggest about our unity?

]]> By: Craig V. http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10639 Craig V. Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:36:35 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10639 Thanks for the post Steve. One thing I just noticed which may be of some interest. The request for unity is centered in our being in the Father and the Son. In other words it's not just that our oneness will be like the Father's oneness with the Son but also that just as the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son we may be one by being in the Father and the Son. What difference does that make? I suppose it speaks to how the prayer might be answered. The goal is not to settle all of our differences but to be in the Father and the Son. Thanks for the post Steve. One thing I just noticed which may be of some interest. The request for unity is centered in our being in the Father and the Son. In other words it’s not just that our oneness will be like the Father’s oneness with the Son but also that just as the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son we may be one by being in the Father and the Son.

What difference does that make? I suppose it speaks to how the prayer might be answered. The goal is not to settle all of our differences but to be in the Father and the Son.

]]> By: Alan Knox http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10643 Alan Knox Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:04:06 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10643 I think Craig V. is onto something. Unity seems to be a by-product of abiding in Christ. Unity can also be a measure of whether or not we are abiding in Christ. -Alan I think Craig V. is onto something. Unity seems to be a by-product of abiding in Christ. Unity can also be a measure of whether or not we are abiding in Christ.

-Alan

]]> By: Gordon Cloud http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10651 Gordon Cloud Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:34:49 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10651 Steve, it is interesting that you would post about this at this time. I have been working on some posts on the same topic. One thing that I have been learning about unity is that it has little or nothing to do with externals such as unanimity or uniformity. I actually believe that from God's point of view, unity is already accomplished by the believer's standing in Christ. (I think Brian may have already alluded to this.) The responsibility then lies upon believers to demonstrate to the world what is already a reality. I believe it boils down to this, unity will only be demonstrated when our one and only goal is the glory of God. If we add any mixture of our own agenda or pride, unity will not be seen. Steve, it is interesting that you would post about this at this time. I have been working on some posts on the same topic. One thing that I have been learning about unity is that it has little or nothing to do with externals such as unanimity or uniformity. I actually believe that from God’s point of view, unity is already accomplished by the believer’s standing in Christ. (I think Brian may have already alluded to this.) The responsibility then lies upon believers to demonstrate to the world what is already a reality.

I believe it boils down to this, unity will only be demonstrated when our one and only goal is the glory of God. If we add any mixture of our own agenda or pride, unity will not be seen.

]]> By: Aussiejohn http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10666 Aussiejohn Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:01:54 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10666 Steve, Great comment. Bryan said,"It is a unity that develops..." Far too often we are looking for what we already have in Christ. We are adopted into one family. The unity is already there, but we haven't appreciated it for what it is. We are still confusing unity for unanimity. We are frustrating a recognition of unity by wanting people to believe EXACTLY what we do. As Paul declared,".. by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." If a person is a new creature in Christ, according to Scripture, I am united with him/her, but I may not have unanimity with them on all points. We will need to learn to agree to disagree even though our disagreement is strong on some points. It would seem that we have assumed that God has not answered His Son's prayer, or that the answer is for the future. I am 100% with Gordon on this one. Steve,

Great comment.

Bryan said,”It is a unity that develops…”

Far too often we are looking for what we already have in Christ. We are adopted into one family. The unity is already there, but we haven’t appreciated it for what it is. We are still confusing unity for unanimity. We are frustrating a recognition of unity by wanting people to believe EXACTLY what we do.

As Paul declared,”.. by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

If a person is a new creature in Christ, according to Scripture, I am united with him/her, but I may not have unanimity with them on all points. We will need to learn to agree to disagree even though our disagreement is strong on some points.

It would seem that we have assumed that God has not answered His Son’s prayer, or that the answer is for the future.

I am 100% with Gordon on this one.

]]> By: David Paul Regier http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10667 David Paul Regier Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:59:22 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10667 Unity is a lot like trying to stack bb's. No matter how you force them or pile them, they will roll off one another, spilling all over the place. There must be a unifying container. Unity, in other words, will never come by focusing on unity. Unity will only come by being "in Christ". We must each of us abide in Him. I cannot "unify" my neighbor, nor am I ever called to. But I can definitely encourage him in Christ. Unity is a lot like trying to stack bb’s. No matter how you force them or pile them, they will roll off one another, spilling all over the place.

There must be a unifying container.

Unity, in other words, will never come by focusing on unity. Unity will only come by being “in Christ”. We must each of us abide in Him. I cannot “unify” my neighbor, nor am I ever called to. But I can definitely encourage him in Christ.

]]> By: Bryan Riley http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10670 Bryan Riley Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:39 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10670 I'm with you, too, Aussie John. Words are important and I should have used a different one. I’m with you, too, Aussie John. Words are important and I should have used a different one.

]]> By: Craig V. http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10705 Craig V. Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:29:17 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10705 I suspect that behind Steve's question about unity being eschatological, there may be a related and more general question. Is the unity that Jesus is praying for somehow hidden? If it's eschatological then it's hidden until Christ comes again. There are, however, other ways it can be hidden. If it's completely internal based on our relationship with Jesus then we might say it's invisible. If we go that route, we still have to face Steve's thoughts on John 17. How can something hidden bring conviction to the world? How can the world see it? I suspect that behind Steve’s question about unity being eschatological, there may be a related and more general question. Is the unity that Jesus is praying for somehow hidden? If it’s eschatological then it’s hidden until Christ comes again. There are, however, other ways it can be hidden. If it’s completely internal based on our relationship with Jesus then we might say it’s invisible. If we go that route, we still have to face Steve’s thoughts on John 17. How can something hidden bring conviction to the world? How can the world see it?

]]> By: George http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10744 George Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:45:16 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10744 I like the way David R expresses this. Unity cannot be achieved by a search for unity; unity is achieved by residing in the container that is Christ. It is a privilege to be hosted by Christ, and I should appreciative enough to defer to my Host's wishes. Given that He has invited me in knowing full well that I am less than a perfect guest, it's probably best if I do not argue with His other guests. While He may appreciate my efforts to welcome prospective guests, He's also told me to love -- not just tolerate -- the existing ones. If we have differences, we can discuss them or even resolve them as long as we can do so in love. (If we can't, then we've taken it outside.) But I'm not invited into Christ to address differences. I'm invited in to celebrate the Host. My differences are essentially unimportant to the reason for the invitation. If I make those differences more important than the purpose intended by the Host, then I'm a pretty rude guest. I suppose I could say my differences simply identify who is not a legitimate fellow guest. But if I did say that, it would be fair to ask me if the invitation extended to me was ever made contingent upon my knowing the correct and complete answers at the time the invitation was extended. Would we all be better off ignorant of the doctrines that overlay and cohere -- or attempt to cohere -- scripture? Probably not, because such systems help us to understand, if only as thru a darkened glass, the Host. But we should never lose sight of the first characteristic to grasp: Love one another. I like the way David R expresses this. Unity cannot be achieved by a search for unity; unity is achieved by residing in the container that is Christ.

It is a privilege to be hosted by Christ, and I should appreciative enough to defer to my Host’s wishes. Given that He has invited me in knowing full well that I am less than a perfect guest, it’s probably best if I do not argue with His other guests. While He may appreciate my efforts to welcome prospective guests, He’s also told me to love — not just tolerate — the existing ones. If we have differences, we can discuss them or even resolve them as long as we can do so in love. (If we can’t, then we’ve taken it outside.)

But I’m not invited into Christ to address differences. I’m invited in to celebrate the Host. My differences are essentially unimportant to the reason for the invitation. If I make those differences more important than the purpose intended by the Host, then I’m a pretty rude guest.

I suppose I could say my differences simply identify who is not a legitimate fellow guest. But if I did say that, it would be fair to ask me if the invitation extended to me was ever made contingent upon my knowing the correct and complete answers at the time the invitation was extended.

Would we all be better off ignorant of the doctrines that overlay and cohere — or attempt to cohere — scripture? Probably not, because such systems help us to understand, if only as thru a darkened glass, the Host. But we should never lose sight of the first characteristic to grasp: Love one another.

]]> By: marie http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10781 marie Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:43:16 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10781 LORD, may the Body of Christ cry out in one voice for You to make us One as You and the Father are One so the world will see Jesus! LORD, may the Body of Christ cry out in one voice for You to make us One as You and the Father are One so the world will see Jesus!

]]> By: ded http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10783 ded Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:27:01 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10783 Amen, George. Your comment warmed my heart. Amen, George. Your comment warmed my heart.

]]> By: Dave http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10828 Dave Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:44:24 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10828 Greetings brother What is unity? If you look up the phrase "in Christ," it's in the bible about a million times. Our unity comes primarily through our unity "in Christ." As Stephen Covey said in his book, "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" private victories precede public victories. As we become more and more rooted in Christ in our personal lives, the outward assembling of ourselves can be what it should be. Since many of us are scattered throughout the world, and since there are FEW true believers (Matt 7:13) sometimes this can be difficult. The narrow path has few on it. Grace and peace brother~Dave Greetings brother

What is unity? If you look up the phrase “in Christ,” it’s in the bible about a million times. Our unity comes primarily through our unity “in Christ.” As Stephen Covey said in his book, “The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People” private victories precede public victories. As we become more and more rooted in Christ in our personal lives, the outward assembling of ourselves can be what it should be. Since many of us are scattered throughout the world, and since there are FEW true believers (Matt 7:13) sometimes this can be difficult. The narrow path has few on it. Grace and peace brother~Dave

]]> By: MamasBoy http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10956 MamasBoy Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:13:30 +0000 http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/10/09/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-1/#comment-10956 Well put, Steve. Well put, Steve.

]]>