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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on Unity and John 17, Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/</link>
	<description>Random discussions about various topics, with an emphasis on simple church and other out-of-the-box thoughts.</description>
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		<title>By: Nate Peres</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14265</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Peres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14265</guid>
		<description>Good explanation. Thanks you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good explanation. Thanks you.</p>
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		<title>By: MamasBoy</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14242</link>
		<dc:creator>MamasBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14242</guid>
		<description>Nate &amp; Marty,

Regarding which doctrines are fundamental, that is a controversial question that sometimes ends in the type of nit-picking that this post correctly  decries.  Nobody agrees on the list, but everybody has one.  If not, then people would consider Muslims to be our brothers in Christ, since they claim to believe in Jesus... it&#039;s just that their definition of who Jesus is/was and did while here on earth varies from the orthodox Christian version (orthodox with a small &quot;o&quot;).  Regarding the specifics, Muslims aren&#039;t too far off from many &quot;Christians&quot; who claim that all the miracles in the Bible were merely literary tools to communicate a &quot;larger message,&quot; however that is defined.

If you think that one can&#039;t be both Muslim and Christian, there are plenty of very intelligent folks who disagree.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

If I were to try to set out which doctrines are fundamental, I would start with who Jesus was and the facts of his life on earth (e.g., the Trinity, His incarnation, death, burial and resurrection) and the divine inspiration of Scripture.  One can go on from there, but that is beyond the scope of my point, which is that all Christians have a set of doctrines that they consider to be fundamental and core.  When they discuss unity among believers, they are almost always talking about unity among people who meet some minimal set of doctrinal criteria.  While we may use terms like identification in Christ, that concept is almost always tied to doctrinal assumptions.

MB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate &amp; Marty,</p>
<p>Regarding which doctrines are fundamental, that is a controversial question that sometimes ends in the type of nit-picking that this post correctly  decries.  Nobody agrees on the list, but everybody has one.  If not, then people would consider Muslims to be our brothers in Christ, since they claim to believe in Jesus&#8230; it&#8217;s just that their definition of who Jesus is/was and did while here on earth varies from the orthodox Christian version (orthodox with a small &#8220;o&#8221;).  Regarding the specifics, Muslims aren&#8217;t too far off from many &#8220;Christians&#8221; who claim that all the miracles in the Bible were merely literary tools to communicate a &#8220;larger message,&#8221; however that is defined.</p>
<p>If you think that one can&#8217;t be both Muslim and Christian, there are plenty of very intelligent folks who disagree.<br />
<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html" rel="nofollow">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html</a></p>
<p>If I were to try to set out which doctrines are fundamental, I would start with who Jesus was and the facts of his life on earth (e.g., the Trinity, His incarnation, death, burial and resurrection) and the divine inspiration of Scripture.  One can go on from there, but that is beyond the scope of my point, which is that all Christians have a set of doctrines that they consider to be fundamental and core.  When they discuss unity among believers, they are almost always talking about unity among people who meet some minimal set of doctrinal criteria.  While we may use terms like identification in Christ, that concept is almost always tied to doctrinal assumptions.</p>
<p>MB</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Peres</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14195</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Peres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14195</guid>
		<description>That is a great qustion. What are fundamental doctrines?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a great qustion. What are fundamental doctrines?</p>
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		<title>By: marty</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14109</link>
		<dc:creator>marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 01:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14109</guid>
		<description>Just to really stir things up a bit...  what are considered fundamental doctrines?

Sorry, just had to ask!
-marty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to really stir things up a bit&#8230;  what are considered fundamental doctrines?</p>
<p>Sorry, just had to ask!<br />
-marty</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Eiss</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14089</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Eiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14089</guid>
		<description>You said, &quot;It is the one causing division who is the heretic.&quot;

In I Corinthians 12, we find: &quot;But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.&quot; (NIV)

And in Titus 3, we read: &quot;9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.&quot; (NIV)

Unity of Faith, not unity of man&#039;s imperfect ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said, &#8220;It is the one causing division who is the heretic.&#8221;</p>
<p>In <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=49&amp;passage=1+Corinthians+12" class="bibleref" title="NASB 1Corinthians 12">I Corinthians 12</a>, we find: &#8220;But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.&#8221; (NIV)</p>
<p>And in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=49&amp;passage=Titus+3" class="bibleref" title="NASB Titus 3">Titus 3</a>, we read: &#8220;9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.&#8221; (NIV)</p>
<p>Unity of Faith, not unity of man&#8217;s imperfect ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: MamasBoy</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14057</link>
		<dc:creator>MamasBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 07:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14057</guid>
		<description>While it&#039;s true that disagreements over some things should not get in the way of our overall unity, it is not true that two people can be unified when  their belief over fundamental doctrinal questions  differs.  Unity operates in different spheres, if you will.  My wife and I may disagree on the best way to train our kids to clean up after themselves, and can still lead a unified marriage if we find a way to compromise.  However, if we differed on the fundamental nature and purpose of marriage, that would be a serious problem and would get in the way of unity.  A marriage could not be called unified, if one spouse  believes in the exclusivity of marriage and the other spouse thinks that their liaisons outside of marriage are OK.  There are fundamental questions of the nature of things that nearly everybody would agree are essential to marriage and even Christianity.  Beyond the fundamental doctrines, even small things can get in the way of unity if the two parties with differing ideas cannot agree on a compromise for working together.  Unity is nothing if it is merely theoretical.  It must be lived.

So, yes, we should see our unity in our identification with Christ, but that does not take us outside the realm of doctrine, because doctrine plays an important role in how we conceive of and know Christ.  Doctrine is essentially an agreed upon interpretation of Scripture.  How we conceive of the death, burial and resurrection are essentially doctrinal questions, as are questions about Christ&#039;s divine and human natures, the nature of the church and how it should look/operate on earth, the role of faith and works in our salvation, etc.  If we are to understand and live out our unity, it is helpful to understand where unity ends and why.  Does it consist in merely loving my neighbor?  If so, then my Mormon friends and I are much more unified than many of my evangelical brothers and sisters.  

It was stated above that a person who denies the validity of a baptism outside his or her denomination is a heretic.  I agree to an extent (e.g., I believe Mormon baptisms are invalid), but calling somebody a heretic implies a moral judgment about their doctrine that one must be able to defend.  There are instances in Scripture of rebaptism, so there are obviously some fundamental distinctives regarding Christian baptism that need to be gotten right.  To say someone is a heretic who holds such beliefs is to essentially say that their theology of baptism does not properly capture those distinctives.  I would agree with Steve that the idea that all baptisms outside of a specific denomination are invalid is heretical, but one should acknowledge that that idea is itself based on certain doctrinal ideas of unity, heresy and baptism.

Since we cannot separate doctrine from our constructs of unity, it is important to understand what are the fundamental Christian doctrines that must be held and why.  We must also be able to figure out ways to live in harmony and mutual respect when there remains disagreement in  &quot;peripheral&quot; areas.  

MB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it&#8217;s true that disagreements over some things should not get in the way of our overall unity, it is not true that two people can be unified when  their belief over fundamental doctrinal questions  differs.  Unity operates in different spheres, if you will.  My wife and I may disagree on the best way to train our kids to clean up after themselves, and can still lead a unified marriage if we find a way to compromise.  However, if we differed on the fundamental nature and purpose of marriage, that would be a serious problem and would get in the way of unity.  A marriage could not be called unified, if one spouse  believes in the exclusivity of marriage and the other spouse thinks that their liaisons outside of marriage are OK.  There are fundamental questions of the nature of things that nearly everybody would agree are essential to marriage and even Christianity.  Beyond the fundamental doctrines, even small things can get in the way of unity if the two parties with differing ideas cannot agree on a compromise for working together.  Unity is nothing if it is merely theoretical.  It must be lived.</p>
<p>So, yes, we should see our unity in our identification with Christ, but that does not take us outside the realm of doctrine, because doctrine plays an important role in how we conceive of and know Christ.  Doctrine is essentially an agreed upon interpretation of Scripture.  How we conceive of the death, burial and resurrection are essentially doctrinal questions, as are questions about Christ&#8217;s divine and human natures, the nature of the church and how it should look/operate on earth, the role of faith and works in our salvation, etc.  If we are to understand and live out our unity, it is helpful to understand where unity ends and why.  Does it consist in merely loving my neighbor?  If so, then my Mormon friends and I are much more unified than many of my evangelical brothers and sisters.  </p>
<p>It was stated above that a person who denies the validity of a baptism outside his or her denomination is a heretic.  I agree to an extent (e.g., I believe Mormon baptisms are invalid), but calling somebody a heretic implies a moral judgment about their doctrine that one must be able to defend.  There are instances in Scripture of rebaptism, so there are obviously some fundamental distinctives regarding Christian baptism that need to be gotten right.  To say someone is a heretic who holds such beliefs is to essentially say that their theology of baptism does not properly capture those distinctives.  I would agree with Steve that the idea that all baptisms outside of a specific denomination are invalid is heretical, but one should acknowledge that that idea is itself based on certain doctrinal ideas of unity, heresy and baptism.</p>
<p>Since we cannot separate doctrine from our constructs of unity, it is important to understand what are the fundamental Christian doctrines that must be held and why.  We must also be able to figure out ways to live in harmony and mutual respect when there remains disagreement in  &#8220;peripheral&#8221; areas.  </p>
<p>MB</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Peres</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14052</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Peres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14052</guid>
		<description>Love these thoughts. 

Aussiejohn hit on one of the worst of the western stumbling blocks to unity. Pride. We are taught to achieve, overcome, and conpuer in this land of opportunity. When we do, we believe WE have the right answer and they don&#039;t. 

George hit on the other, though he did not come right out and say it. We have to respect that God has each person on their own path, and that we should not be the ones to guide it. Only God should. For example, my brother follows God in everything. God has placed him where he wants him. I cuss very rarely anymore, though he does very often. But that is the language of the people that God has ask him to reach. Should I chastise him for speaking the language of the lost, or respect that God has his plan for him? Tough one.

Lastly Sarah with Identity. When we feel our identity to be threatened we lash out. So when someone has a belief different from ours, we feel that we need to correct that person so others don&#039;t misunderstand who we are because they say that they go to churhc so and so, and so do I. Identity is something we will viciously fight for. It is why dying to self is so hard, we want to be who we want to be, but we must be who God wants us to be instead.

Got a little long there. Sorry, next time I will bring snacks when I do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love these thoughts. </p>
<p>Aussiejohn hit on one of the worst of the western stumbling blocks to unity. Pride. We are taught to achieve, overcome, and conpuer in this land of opportunity. When we do, we believe WE have the right answer and they don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>George hit on the other, though he did not come right out and say it. We have to respect that God has each person on their own path, and that we should not be the ones to guide it. Only God should. For example, my brother follows God in everything. God has placed him where he wants him. I cuss very rarely anymore, though he does very often. But that is the language of the people that God has ask him to reach. Should I chastise him for speaking the language of the lost, or respect that God has his plan for him? Tough one.</p>
<p>Lastly Sarah with Identity. When we feel our identity to be threatened we lash out. So when someone has a belief different from ours, we feel that we need to correct that person so others don&#8217;t misunderstand who we are because they say that they go to churhc so and so, and so do I. Identity is something we will viciously fight for. It is why dying to self is so hard, we want to be who we want to be, but we must be who God wants us to be instead.</p>
<p>Got a little long there. Sorry, next time I will bring snacks when I do this.</p>
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		<title>By: rob s</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14037</link>
		<dc:creator>rob s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14037</guid>
		<description>Great topic, Steve, and well said, Sarah.  Unity between Steve and I is possible because our love for each other as a brothers in Christ is not predicated on our agreement in every aspect of Christianity, rather our commonality of spirit and camaraderie established in shared past experiences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great topic, Steve, and well said, Sarah.  Unity between Steve and I is possible because our love for each other as a brothers in Christ is not predicated on our agreement in every aspect of Christianity, rather our commonality of spirit and camaraderie established in shared past experiences.</p>
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		<title>By: Carey</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14036</link>
		<dc:creator>Carey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-14036</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s so easy to accept each other online.  Go out and love the people in your place, face to face, casting all these false divisions aside.
Re: the 100 steps thing that Nate brought up.  In this life, step 99 will always lead to back to step 1, so we might as well identify with all those numbered positions, until...the big 100, which comes only through crossing over to the other side.
Carey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s so easy to accept each other online.  Go out and love the people in your place, face to face, casting all these false divisions aside.<br />
Re: the 100 steps thing that Nate brought up.  In this life, step 99 will always lead to back to step 1, so we might as well identify with all those numbered positions, until&#8230;the big 100, which comes only through crossing over to the other side.<br />
Carey</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Rooney</title>
		<link>http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13972</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Rooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/2007/11/29/thoughts-on-unity-and-john-17-part-2/#comment-13972</guid>
		<description>Great post, and great discussion! I find that identity is at the core of issues of relationship and unity. When our identity is misplaced in something other than Christ, we can quickly become offended and feel attacked if someone disagrees or has another perspective, or is negative in their assessment of something. While you point mostly to doctrinal sources of identity, I think that other sources cause the same problems of disunity for Christians. 

For example, if my identity is in my nationalism, then I may easily become offended and break unity with my brothers and sisters from France, Germany, or anywhere else that may have a differing perspective. If my identity is in my generation (or age demographic), then I may be offended by someone of another demographic who sees things differently. If my identity is in my education level, my career, my political leanings - all of this things can be sources of disunity, I find. 

When Christians root their identity in things other than Christ, then when a brother or sister with a different perspective verbalizes their viewpoint, it is taken personally - and the relationship suffers. I think if we truly see our identity in Christ (and not other things - which quickly become idols), then our offendibility plummets and unity is much easier. 

It seems to me that unity is the unconditional commitment to relationship with people regardless of similarity or differences. I want to be part of a company of people that embody an attitude that says, &quot;No matter your perspectives, opinions, nationality, age, gender, whatever... no matter your doctrinal particularities... these things can&#039;t deter me from accepting and honoring you as my brother/sister in Christ, and that&#039;s that. &quot; In that atmosphere, I think we could discuss things more freely - knowing that our acceptance or rejection isn&#039;t dependent on peripheral non-essentials.

And on the other hand, I sometimes wonder where the balance lies between being honest and being sensitive... :) Don&#039;t have that one figured out yet...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, and great discussion! I find that identity is at the core of issues of relationship and unity. When our identity is misplaced in something other than Christ, we can quickly become offended and feel attacked if someone disagrees or has another perspective, or is negative in their assessment of something. While you point mostly to doctrinal sources of identity, I think that other sources cause the same problems of disunity for Christians. </p>
<p>For example, if my identity is in my nationalism, then I may easily become offended and break unity with my brothers and sisters from France, Germany, or anywhere else that may have a differing perspective. If my identity is in my generation (or age demographic), then I may be offended by someone of another demographic who sees things differently. If my identity is in my education level, my career, my political leanings &#8211; all of this things can be sources of disunity, I find. </p>
<p>When Christians root their identity in things other than Christ, then when a brother or sister with a different perspective verbalizes their viewpoint, it is taken personally &#8211; and the relationship suffers. I think if we truly see our identity in Christ (and not other things &#8211; which quickly become idols), then our offendibility plummets and unity is much easier. </p>
<p>It seems to me that unity is the unconditional commitment to relationship with people regardless of similarity or differences. I want to be part of a company of people that embody an attitude that says, &#8220;No matter your perspectives, opinions, nationality, age, gender, whatever&#8230; no matter your doctrinal particularities&#8230; these things can&#8217;t deter me from accepting and honoring you as my brother/sister in Christ, and that&#8217;s that. &#8221; In that atmosphere, I think we could discuss things more freely &#8211; knowing that our acceptance or rejection isn&#8217;t dependent on peripheral non-essentials.</p>
<p>And on the other hand, I sometimes wonder where the balance lies between being honest and being sensitive&#8230; <img src='http://www.theologicalmusingsblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Don&#8217;t have that one figured out yet&#8230;</p>
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