The Faithful Witness

You’ve plowed some good ground here.

I don’t believe these things can really be understood, however, without a biblically-based understanding of the “trichotomous” make-up of man.

That is, man is made up, loosly speaking, of Body, Soul, and Spirit.

To perhaps oversimplify:

“Body” is obvious…it’s our physical make-up.

“Soul” might be thought of as our mind, emotions, and will.

“Spirit” is that which is our very essence, our nature, the “Man” (as in “old man” and “new man”), that part of us which is “born again”.

Our body is obviously not “born again”. Our soul (mind, emotions & will) are not born again. Our minds still need to be renewed, and our emotions & will obviously may be wrong or mis-directed.

Only our spirit is “born again”, but since that is the very essence of us, our nature, then we have a new nature. The “old man” (old nature) is crucified, dead.

What is the problem, then?

It’s the “flesh”, which is a lot more physical than most people think. It’s not our “old nature”, or our “sin(ful) nature” (as the NIV wrongly translates it in Rom. 7.

The flesh might be thought of as our old “program” which is imprinted on our [physical] brain, and in our very members. Paul makes it clear in Rom. 7 that sin is IN him, but is NOT HIM. “But now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” (Rom. 7:17) So the flesh is where sin dwells.

SIDENOTE: That doesn’t mean, as the Gnostics and others taught, that the body is “evil” or unimportant. Again, “sin” is not “us”, as believers, but IN us, that is, in our members.

In what sense are we “perfected”, then? In our spirit, which is not only made new (new creature, new creation), but becomes “one with [the Lord]” (1 Cor. 6:17).

Then why do we still sin?

Because we go AGAINST our new nature, our new spirit which is one with His Spirit, and “walk by the flesh”. Why would we do that? Because we are temporarily deceived by the world, the flesh, and the devil. Insofar as we are brought back to our senses (repentance, changing our mind), we return to “walking by the Spirit” and thus not fulfilling the lust of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).

So Paul DID experience this Rom. 7 sin pattern at times, but he knew enough to cry out and return to fellowship with Christ and His Grace. He understood that sin is no longer master over us, and he understood why…because we are no longer under law, but under grace (Rom. 6:14). And he understood that we are dead to sin and alive to God, through Christ and he “reckoned”, “chose to believe”, “considered” this to be true (Rom. 6:6,11).

Your quotation of Rom. 8:4 implies that we Christians never “walk according to the flesh” (correct me if I misunderstood you). But in fact we DO at times.

The word “walk” in the passage is in the present tense and indicates that we don’t UNREPENTANTLY CONTINUE in such a walk. This is similar to John in 1 John, when he says that a believer doesn’t sin. The tense indicates a LIFE of UNREPENTANT SIN, which is, of course the sign of an unbeliever.

Bottom line: We need to stop striving to be “better”, but to understand the wondrous thing that God has already done FOR us (His death on the Cross - it is “finished” - we are forgiven permanently), and what He has already done IN us (crucified our “old man” with Himself, and raised us with Him as a new creation, given us a new spirit indwelt by His Spirit).

Then we can enjoy His fellowship, free from condemnation, and thereby “be being filled” with His Spirit, and “walk by the Spirit”. When we “fail” at this, we don’t engage in self-abasement, but merely thank Him for our forgiveness, “get up” again, enjoy His fellowship again, and walk by the Spirit. Which is in perfect harmony with our new nature.

Blessings,
Terry

I’ll be honest - I’m not completely sold on trichotomy. I understand it, but I’m not entirely convinced that it is the only possible interpretation of scripture. There are passages that seem to speak more to only two divisions (dichotomy), and so I’m hesitant to hang my hat on one particular concept.

Having said that, the trichotomy concept is one way to “rationalize” (I don’t mean that negatively) sin in the life of a believer.

Your comment seems to indicate great areas of agreement for us on this, though, despite my unwillingness to adopt a trichotomy view wholesale.

You concluded with: Then we can enjoy His fellowship, free from condemnation, and thereby “be being filled” with His Spirit, and “walk by the Spirit”. When we “fail” at this, we don’t engage in self-abasement, but merely thank Him for our forgiveness, “get up” again, enjoy His fellowship again, and walk by the Spirit. Which is in perfect harmony with our new nature.

And this is exactly what I had hoped to convey in the post. There is no shame, no guilt, no self-abasement when a believer sins. Just walking again in the Spirit.

As for Romans 8:4, I merely quoted what Paul said without commentary. Paul says that we don’t. I’ll go with that

Be blessed, brother. And again, thanks for stopping by. It’s always nice to chat with you online. It’s been too long.

In reading this, I thought that the reason we seemed so trapped in our ideas of sin is because of the tendency to view it behaviorally and transactionally rather than relationally.

As you suggested, when we view it behaviorally, then we are continually looking at our deeds through the lens of law and attempting through confession to transactionally deal with our failures.

Viewed through a relational lens, sin, repentance, and forgiveness are part of our ongoing communication with the Father as He speaks to our hearts concerning whatever behaviors we are involved in that hinder our new nature and our fellowship with Him.

Rather than a checklist of do’s and don’ts, we develop a sensitivity to the Spirit’s leading and conviction, realizing that rather than condemnation, the Spirit works on our behalf to bring life and wholeness.

And I agree with your thoughts. Relational vs. transactional is a key distinction.

Thanks for your input!
steve

I also think these are great thoughts on an interesting topic. Also, before I open my mouth, I hope you’ll forgive my theological pedigree… though some might say I’m more of a theological mutt.

I want to interact with your post and comments, but I need some more time to read and think about them. Nokay?

-Alan

Were you amused to see the di-/tri- topic come up again so soon after we talked about it on your blog?

Yes, I noticed that the dichotomy/trichotomy distinction came up again. Its interesting that this distinction keeps coming up in relation to the topic of sin.

I’m trying to understand what you are saying in this post when you say, “If we have come to Christ and received the gift of eternal life that he has provided, we no longer have a consciousness of sin”. Are you saying that we no longer sin? Are you saying that we no longer recognize or notice our sin? (Both of those options seem “inconceivable” )

Are you saying that those who are in Christ “forget about” sin in the sense that they recognize that they have already been cleansed and do not attempt to make themselves clean and trust in (”have faith in”) God and his grace?

Again, I’m simply trying to understand what you mean.

-Alan

Alan, I appreciate your follow-up questions.

Let me first of all say that I’m not entirely sure of all the implications of what I have written, which is why I invited disagreement and debate on this.

Are you saying that those who are in Christ “forget about” sin in the sense that they recognize that they have already been cleansed and do not attempt to make themselves clean and trust in (”have faith in”) God and his grace?

That is worded very much in line with where I’m at on this.

The bottom line is this: I’m looking at what Hebrews 10 is saying and trying to understand the ramifications. It appears to be saying (by the contrast to the Old Covenant sacrifices) that our sin should not be an issue for us. We are already clean. If sin exists, it should not be putting a barrier between us and God. It should be seen for what it is, and rejected out of hand.

I do think that Paul teaches that we have everything available to us to avoid sin completely. Whether or not we walk in that is another story.

But here’s what bothers me, and why I wrote this post (now that you know from my private email that this was not in any way prompted by your series on sin that I didn’t even know existed when I was writing this!): There is an awful lot of emphasis in the teaching that I have heard and been raised in on the ongoing sinfulness of the believer. And that sinfulness seems to be excused by either the trichotomy approach (I’m not saying Terry Rayburn was “excusing” anything, but the view tends to serve that purpose, I think) or the “already/not yet” concept.

I have problems accepting either of those explanations because neither one is stated very clearly at all in scripture. Our life in Christ, however, and the victory over sin that comes from living in Christ are both spoken of quite plentifully in scripture.

It would make sense to me, then, that we would want to emphasize that good news. But there are actually some very outspoken people who think that it’s harmful (gives people false hope, you know) to talk about victory over sin.

I can’t tell you strongly enough how much that grieves me.

Thanks for the clarification. As you may have guessed, you picked the option that I would agree with as well. I agree that God has given us everything that we need to not sin - primarily his own Spirit. Thus, we do not have to sin - it is not necessary that we sin. At the same time, I do believe that we will sin and we do sin because we continue to live with the “old man” - whether that is 1/2 of us or 1/3 of us or some other fraction.

I am concerned about sin in my own life because sin affects my relationship with God and my relationship with other people. However, even when I sin, I cannot cleanse myself of that sin - God has already cleansed me. I can confess it. I can ask God to continue to change my heart so that I’m not tempted (perhaps as Paul did when he asked God to remove the “thorn in his side”?). But, most of all, I trust in God and his grace. I strongly believe that grace is for living, not just for salvation. Thus, I live believing that God has forgiven me completely in Christ and that HE is working through many different means to make me less like the old Alan and more like Christ - maturing me, if you will.

In other words, just as my “salvation” was not of my own making, so my “sanctification” is not of my own making - although, I am using those two categories simply for discussion. God is the great hope giver for eternal life - both the life to come and the life we have now.

-Alan

-Alan

Back to what I said earlier, I believe that we have had an overly transactional view of sin, and I think that is based on an emphasis in the penal substitution view of atonement. Because of this, we don’t see the relational dynamic of atonement.

What Steve is getting at, I think, is that with the atonement, relationship with God is completely and permanently restored and our former relationship with sin (being subject to it) is completely broken.

If we then approach the idea of perfection through behavior, we still miss the point and if we are successful are likely to end up in pride.

Many of us are able to avoid the “biggie” sins and have an appearance of righteousness. We tend to have such a black and white view of sin behaviors.

But what if sin is the occasions where we believe the lies of the enemy instead of God’s truth concerning ourselves and Him. Then as Alan said, sanctification becomes about relationship, allowing Him to redeem the broken areas in our hearts and our understanding in order that we may mature in knowing Him and becoming more like Him.

Steve, I hear what you are saying about people being afraid of letting go of a sin-conciousness. Yet ultimately, I think that is the very thing that keeps them enslaved to sin.

I don’t think it is a stretch to say that God has dealt with my sin, completely and permanently.

Indeed, a controversial subject! As you know, I, like Terry, lean heavily towards the trichotomy point of view and I’ve often used said trichotomy view to explain the things you’ve said here.

However, even though I believe in that view, I realize the Bible itself doesn’t use the word “trichotomy,” and I think we can look at what scripture does actually say.

Several things come to mind, and I’m open to thoughts on all of this.

1. Paul himself, from what I see, uses the word “sinner” or “sinners” in regards to those who don’t yet know Christ. One time alone, he refers to himself as “chief” of sinners, and if I go along with the rest of the times he uses the word, I believe he is referring to his past life in unbelief.

“While we were still sinners Christ died for us…”

My overall point is that the church today tends to identify themselves as “sinners” but you just don’t see Paul doing that. The word “sinners” (hamartolos, adjective) is, I think, mostly used to describe behavior, but yet is rarely used. Our actual identity in Christ, as I see it, is not “sinner.” Our identity is “saint.” We are righteous saints who do commit acts of sin. But I really think that we should not refer to ourselves as “sinners.”

2. Hamartia/Hamartano This is my main point. The vast majority of times Paul uses the word that is translated as “sin” in English versions of the Bible, he uses the noun hamartia. NOT that I’m an expert on Greek (!) but I see this as significant. Most of the time, Paul is not talking about the verb (action - hamartano), but about the noun… perhaps better translated as “sin condition” (?).

“When you were slaves of hamartia (noun, not verb), you were free in regard to righteousness… but now having been set free from hamartia…” (Rom 6:20,22)

“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of hamartia might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of hamartia (noun). For he who has died has been freed from hamartia. (Rom 6:5-7)

Contrasted with the much-less-used hamartano (verb, action):

But when you thus hamartano against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you hamartano against Christ. (1 Cor 8:12)

HAMARTIA is something that the Christian is no longer identified with, as evidenced in a multitude of scriptures. HAMARTANO, however, (sinful acts) can and does still seem to describe the behavior of saints sometimes.

So, as far as Hamartia goes, we are cleansed from it. We no longer have a conscience of it. It has been taken away! It has been removed once and for all by the blood of Jesus. There is no hamartia to confess, to dwell upon, to worry about, to come between us and God!

“Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the hamartia of the world.”

Most or all of what you quoted is in regards to hamartia. It’s such great news! It’s even better news than most Christians seem to understand. Our SIN has been taken away. There was a one time offering for sin. There is no longer any offering for sin. He who has DIED has been freed from sin! We HAVE died. We HAVE BEEN perfected. We HAVE BEEN washed. We HAVE BEEN cleansed. Our hearts HAVE BEEN sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Most of the talk of sin in the church is unfounded. Most of the talk of sin in the church has to do with misunderstandings of the scriptures that refer to hamartia, which has already been done away with.

I’d like to suggest that 1 John 1:9 is not a verse for Christians, but rather a verse that a Christian (John) wrote to a group of people that included both believers and non-believers, and he was telling the non-believers how to be cleansed of their hamartia. By confessing (agreeing with the fact) that they have hamartia, God is faithful and just to forgive their hamartia and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. The believer has already been cleansed of hamartia. (See all the other scriptures).

I realize I’ve said a lot… and I don’t mean to put anyone on the defensive or to feel that they have to answer to all I’ve said. Just some thoughts.

In the new order, sin would be done away with, not because people would behave better. But b/c God would give (and has given) a “better covenant.”

Hebrews talks about sin consciousness being removed. Meanwhile, the institutional church continually reinforces it. Perhaps, if we changed the way we tell the story, we’ll see ourselves differently and behave differently too.

BTW, have you read Miroslav Volf’s book “The End of Memory”?

First off, I do realize that my understanding of Greek and the context of the scriptures is most certainly up for scrutiny, so if anyone has any correction and/or backup for my thoughts, I’d most certainly welcome it.

Also, I didn’t mean at all to imply that I think there is no place for dealing with sinful behavior in the church. I truly think there is, as Alan has spent some time discussing on his blog. Steve, I echo your thoughts about considering (reckoning) ourselves as dead to sin. We should reckon it as true, because it is true.

The whole “set your mind on things above” thing… We have indeed died and our life is hidden in Christ. The life we live is no longer “us” living it, but we live it knowing that we have died and our life is now Christ. “When Christ, who is our life appears…” The church spends so much time talking about sin, sin, sin that there is hardly any room left for talking about “things above” - such as our life in Christ - which is really to be our ongoing focus! I believe that victorious Christian living is a gift (1 Cor 15:57), not something we can strive to attain by the works of our flesh.

Paul’s admonitions against sinful behavior, or against the deeds of the flesh (and by the way, the deeds of the flesh can look very, very good and positive!) are almost always (if not always) put together with edifying talk of grace and who we are in Christ, and are infused with phrases like “according to the Spirit,” “by the power of the Spirit,” “through Christ,” “Christ in you” and countless mentions of grace. What else, besides yielding to grace, can enable us with power for Christian living!

I also wanted to echo some other things that have already been said by you and others. Man, so much good stuff to comment on, but I don’t want to be guilty of the sin of making this too long.

I think I’ll just end by saying that perhaps there is so much sin in the church because the church is so preoccupied with sin(?). We have not focused on the good news of who we are in Christ, but rather we have lived kind of an anemic life as a body, not reckoning the fullness of the glory of the life of Christ that we’ve been filled with, and instead we’ve lost the vitality of life by filling ourselves with the drug of religion and sin-consciousness.

Joel, perhaps what you’re describing at the end of your latest comment is what Paul meant when he talked about “having a form of godliness, but denying its power”??

I do think that’s part of what Paul may have been talking about in 2 Tim 3. I even have a real life experience with a friend that essentially makes that point. This friend was one of the most influential people in my life about 16-18 years ago when it came to understanding a “personal relationship” with Jesus. When I met him, he had peace flowing from his life. I could really, truly sense genuine peace in him that I had never before seen in anyone. I often said to myself, “That’s what I want in my life,” and it’s part of what helped me to come to trust in Christ.

But over a period of time, after we had been friends for a while, I began to see him lose so much of this sense of peace. My personal observance is that he became more and more focused on his own sin, and the sin of others. I don’t think he was actually sinning more, and I don’t think I or his other friends were sinning more, but his focus became more and more on “fixing” his and our sin issues. His eyes were not fixed on things above, so to speak.

One day, a few years back, he and I were talking about our lives in Christ and he said that he felt like he had a form of godliness but was denying the power thereof. He said, “I’m always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of truth.” The sad thing is that I sensed he thought the way to fix this was to try harder to “stop sinning” and to start living more righteously. To focus on things above, to him, seemed to mean focusing on living a better life for Christ. Then… he would have power.

And so there you have it… a form of godliness, but no power. The reason, as far as I saw it, was that the “godly focus” was really a fleshly focus.

However, since it is a work of grace, absolution must be accepted by faith.

We can’t have a sense of freedom from guilt by working for it.

Thank you for sharing these thoughts especially. Tremendously! & also what Terry commented with as well:

Bottom line: We need to stop striving to be “better”, but to understand the wondrous thing that God has already done FOR us (His death on the Cross - it is “finished” - we are forgiven permanently), and what He has already done IN us (crucified our “old man” with Himself, and raised us with Him as a new creation, given us a new spirit indwelt by His Spirit).

Then we can enjoy His fellowship, free from condemnation, and thereby “be being filled” with His Spirit, and “walk by the Spirit”. When we “fail” at this, we don’t engage in self-abasement, but merely thank Him for our forgiveness, “get up” again, enjoy His fellowship again, and walk by the Spirit. Which is in perfect harmony with our new nature.

These are much needed ways of wording this for me right now!

There has been some good, long comments, so I’ll be brief and simplistic:

For those who are truly in Christ,what God “sees” and what man KNOWS are two different things. God “sees” a born anew person clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, man knows, because he sins, that he is still a sinner, but changing.

What God “sees” is the important issue! Most preaching today concentrates on keeping a congregation aware and focused on the fact that they are sinners, rather than a work in progress, what has been done, what is being done, and what will be completed,to the point of “when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.” (1 Jn 3:2)

I, too, lean towards the trichotomist position (surprise, surprise ), but I don’t think that necessarily breeds too much conflict with what you are writing.

As I see it, there are two realms in which believers interact with God: relationship and fellowship. Relationship is static with God being our heavenly father and eternal life being the key component. Fellowship is the realm in which sanctification occurs. We can indeed become “unconcious” to sin or “dead” to sin. If we do sin, I Corinthians and I John both give us remedies for dealing with such issues.

I would certainly agree with you that our identity in Christ should be the dominant factor in our lives in regard to sin. If we live in the victory that is already in us, (as opposed to trying to keep a set of rules) the power of Christ can enable us to live free from the domination of sin.

Is this not what Gal. 2:20 speaks of?

I hope these comments make sense. It is Sunday night and while my spirit is rejuvenated, my mind is pretty close to being well-done right now.

This morning I sent an apology via e-mail to Rose and John. The apology was NOT for having included Rose in a bulk e-mail. My apology was in regard to how I reacted to John’s two paragraph comment that I find disingenuous on several levels.

Never-the-less, my reaction was not right, the Holy Spirit convicted me of it, and I responded to Him. I immediately deleted my reply, posted both a public apology and the e-mail to Rose and John I mentioned above.

Furthermore, in the e-mail apology I also asked for their forgiveness.

Even though both Rose and John have been active in the blogs today, neither of them have acknowledged nor accepted my apology. Neither one has indicated or written to forgive me as I requested.

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in Heaven forgive your trespasses,” (Mark 11:25-26).

I did my best following my conscience and the leading of the Holy Spirit to make this right and bring closure. Unless I hear otherwise, it appears Rose and John are not willing to bring closure.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” (1 John 1:9).

As far as I am concerned this is a closed issue and under the blood, whether or not Rose and John will respond appropriately.

LM

Gentlemen, please. I have no idea why this is being discussed on my blog, but I have no desire to be in the middle of this.

I do not delete comments from my blog except under extreme circumstances, but I am shocked and confused as to why this has been brought to my blog.

John, in the past you have demonstrated from what I have seen to be a very gracious man, reflecting the love of Christ. You don’t need to chase someone around the blogosphere. You have attempted many times to correct Lou in the past, and I would strongly urge you and Rose to completely ignore him at this point. But please leave my blog out of it. I am completely baffled as to why you commented about this here in this manner.

Lou, you on the other hand, have not demonstrated the love of Christ in the discussions I have read with you elsewhere. I have observed you calling people names, labeling others as false teachers, and yet not demonstrating any Christlike attitude in your comments. You are not welcome to come here and speak about this matter between you and someone else that does not involve me.

I’ve missed a few comments here, so I will attempt to respond:

Kevin, thank you for your comment. Sorry it got overlooked in the midst of Joel’s comments. I am not familiar with the book you mentioned. Does it express similar sentiments to my post, or is it something that offers a different perspective? I wasn’t sure if you were asking me if I had read it because my thoughts were similar, or if you were recommending it for further thought.

ded, great to see you, brother! I miss your blogging. But June is coming We also need to get together again soon. It’s been too long and we miss our fellowship.

Gordon, great to hear from you, too. You’re about as busy a blogger as I am I’m glad you agree with the main gist of my post, even if you lean toward the trichotomy position. I’m not discounting the trichotomy concept by any stretch. I’m not totally convinced, but I’m not throwing it out.

AussieJohn, I’ll have to meditate some more on your distinction between what God sees and what we know. I think a huge part of it is seeing ourselves the way God does. But maybe that’s what you’re getting at.

Amanda, glad it could be an encouragement to you! Blessings on you as you follow Christ.

It’s great to see you blogging again. I love the title of this post. I agree with most that has been said and, like you, I don’t believe I have a real firm grasp on all of what Scripture is teaching in this area. The only thing I can add is that sometimes we try to reduce the language in the Bible to propositions or truth claims. We forget that language not only makes truth claims but also does things in the listeners. For example, suppose my son steals something from a store. In confronting him I might say that Vicks (my last name is Vick) don’t steal. As a truth claim my statement is clearly false since a Vick just did steal and that’s the whole reason we’re having the conversation. Yet, no one would really accuse me of stating a falsehood. It’s understood that I’m trying to build a pride in my son rooted in his family so that he will see next time he’s tempted that stealing is totally inconsistent with who he is. When John says in I John, “No one who is born of God sins” (the Greek is that strong though many translations try to soften it by bringing out the present tense), I don’t think he’s trying to make an observation about Christians. At many places in I John it’s clear that John knows that Christians sin (1:8 for example). What he’s trying to do, I think, is make us aware of who we really are and to see that who we are is totally inconsistent with sin.

You have a way of expressing your insights that is deep, yet easy to understand. Thank you for being available to the Holy Spirit. There is an atmosphere here that allows for sharing of a variety of positions & thoughts with grace, and the comments are thought-provoking. Thank you to all who share.

I am with you on your position on Romans 7. I believe it to be Paul speaking of himself before conversion in one of the verses he says “when the law came to me” as a believer under grace not under law I have to say Paul is a bit bi-polar from saying:

1.We are free from sin but I am a slave sold under Sin

2.I am slave righteousness but I can’t do what I want to do

3. I am of the flesh but the mind of the flesh is hostile to God

I can continue but I will not. I think most of these flows from a heavy emphasis on justification and a very weak view of regeneration (new birth). I could be wrong so I say that with humilty not wanting to offend those who went before me in this great faith.

Hey your not a Calvinist? I saw your election post! Shame on you Sir! But I guess I can forgive you (I guess I have too Ephesians 4 :o)